Podcast #44: “The Heat is On!”

120 May 17, 2015 by

44_finalIn this episode, Jason takes one for the DXP team by saying all kinds of controversial crap about Israel, Texas, and women (he’s not all detestable, really. He’s just tired of his BFF getting picked on over the whole “Christians should kill their children” dust-up and wanted to divert attention). Christian tells a story involving a near brawl at his son’s soccer match. Between the parents. Speaking of skirmishes, a caller asks about the conflict in the Middle East to which we offer nothing remotely resembling constructive advice (beyond Christian’s prohibiting the Bible from having any say in the matter). Jason defends his track record of insulting Texas to a caller from Texas, and is thankfully made to understand that the Lone Star State isn’t nearly as trashy as Arkansas. We then plunge headfirst into the “Dad Bod” craze, much to Christian’s discomfort. Jason is convinced his dismissal of the controversy over the so-called double standard is justified, and that no blowback will come his way from his comments whatsoever. Jason is biebered by non-broke stuff getting fixed, while Christian’s bieber centers on the arrogance of those who can’t handle it when people on their ideological team join an opposing side.

Also, is that “Freedom Rock”? Well turn it up, man!

Links from this week’s episode:

120 Comments (click here to leave a comment)

  1. Christian,

    Does it amuse you that after the first voicemail where a caller says abortion should be legal in order to make it a real moral choice, the first thing Jason does is take that to it’s LOGICAL CONCLUSION and say “why not make murder legal?” Apparently Christians are allowed to take anything to a logical conclusion as long as it’s not their own faith haha.

  2. Ha, Brad! I didn’t even think about that…but that’s probably because that’s right where I was taking it too. At least I’m consistent. 😉

  3. It’s Numbers 5.

    If a woman was suspected by her husband of infidelity (for whatever reason.) The husband could bring her before the priests and accuse her. She would have her hair loosened (and some Jewish commentators think it also involved exposing more of her than that.) The priest would prepare a potion with ash and dirt and other unnamed bits mixed in with water and the woman would have to drink it in front of everyone as a curse was pronounced over the water.

    Supposedly, if she were guilty, her uterus would drop out of her and/or a child would miscarry or something visible would happen that would prove her guilt and leave her infertile. Some rabbis also speculated that simultaneously, her lover would drop dead as well.

    If the woman was innocent and nothing happened, her ‘reward’ would be to go back to her husband who had publicly shamed her. Divorce was not an option for women.

    Back when property was very important and familial based, this magic ritual was a method to supposedly prevent it from passing hands into another family through infidelity as well as to protect your ‘property’ rights over your wife.

  5. Yeah, it is. Much like attributing natural disasters to God’s displeasure or blaming defeat by a clearly superior and better equipped military force on idol worship.

    During WWI, the UK invaded Ottoman Empire holdings in the Middle East as part of the war against the Central Powers. One of those holdings was Palestine.

    Following the war, the UK was given a mandate by the League of Nations basically making Palestine and other ME regions colonies under their control with the idea that they would help the natives establish governments and work their way towards independence.

    At some date, I don’t recall what, Britain announced their intention to create a Jewish homeland within their mandate of Palestine. The folks who lived in that land objected to it, eventually the borders were drawn down to the ones proposed in the UN resolution that created the state of Israel, and then depending on whom you listen to, either the Arabs started a war to try and kill all of the Jews, or the Jews stormed into Arab neighborhoods to ethnically cleanse them, or some combination thereof.

    Final result anyway, was the millions of Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from the land, the Israeli government passed laws taking their property without compensation, and the whole shebang generally devolved into the mutually destructive clusterfuck that exists today where one enclave lobs rockets at Israel, and they respond with overwhelming force killing civilians and crippling sanctions. And the other enclave tries to work diplomatically for a state, while they are cut off from the other enclave and Israel proper, as ultra-orthodox families and gangs come in to settle (steal their land or burn their crops) with no interference from the government.

    Lesser known is the fact that Coptic Christians face genuine persecution by ultra-Orthodox Jewish folks and find their churches defaced with graffiti.

    But you know… they’re not real Christians or they’d realize that everything the Israeli government does is right in the eyes of God. Plus, they’re like… foreign and speak a different language.

  6. Here’s all I need to know about Texas:

    A virtually unregulated fertilizer plant with minimal insurance blew up a goddamned town, and the state government did nothing to prevent it from happening again elsewhere, and BRAGS about how little they regulate companies.

    They think that the Federal government is using normal military training exercises in a secret attempt to take over the state, which… last time I looked, has been a part of the United States since 1865, which they left before then because they were worried that the Federal government was going to come in and tell them they can’t own people.

    They gave us George W. Bush… and Rick Perry… and Ted f’ing Cruz… and Louis motherf’ing Gohmert.

    King of the Hill was a pretty cool show though, so you got that going for you.

  7. Chuck Norris, Dr. Pepper, Willie Nelson, zztop, beyonce, texmex, kolaches, George Strait, Nolan Ryan, Rodeos, the Dallas Cowboys, blue bell…. err…. scratch that, cheap houses, cheap everything, lots of jobs, incredibly good looking women everywhere, we can still buy XL drinks, we can ride motorcycles without a helmet, we pay no state sales tax, we pay pretty low taxes altogether, we have a 10 billion dollar economic surplus, everyone is moving here, football everything, Friday night lights, riding horseback, bad ass history, bad ass people, annnnnnnnd Chris Kyle. Your welcome world.

  10. I do have fond memories of being a kid in the 80’s and watching a VHS rented copy of Invasion USA in all of its wonderfully cheap, poorly-acted, violent glory with denim-vested, mulleted Chuck dual wielding Uzis to kill Russians and Cubans.

  13. Duh. forgot to mention that I lived in Australia and that’s why I felt the need to defend their spelling and pronunciation. Also, “ten” foil. I like that.

  15. The lady at the match = classic King County soccer mom. They have all this pent up rage from watching their kid play club soccer without uttering a word to anyone on the ‘other side’. Once they’ve had enough, comedy ensues. I’ve seen yoga pant wearing, food co-op founding debutantes from Bellevue scold kids from the sidelines for taking out mommy’s little angel. Jumping up and down, yelling at the ref with one hand holding a pretend red card. After the game they talk extra loud as everyone walks through the parking lot. “Can you believe those animals?”

  16. http://www.worldwide words.org/articles/aluminium.htm has a write up on the history of the spelling.
    On the topic of women’s body shapes I’m not convinced that its generally heterosexual men telling women they need to be ridiculously thin. I’d start with women’s magazines and the fashion industry neither of which look like they are dominated by straight men flaunting dad bods. I’ve read that clothes are deemed to hang better on thin bodies than more curved ones hence the push for thin bodies iin fashion.
    Personally I’m of the view that judgments about a mans worth/desirabilty based on his financial status are at least as an entrenched factor but that does not seem to generate the same level of angst and outrage.
    Bob

  18. Jason,

    I don’t buy into the “blindly supporting Israel” stance of many Protestants (and of some American politically conservative Catholics), so nothing you said on that topic irked me. Not that you would hold back you from speaking your mind anyway, and it is your and Christian’s show, not mine or anyone else’s! 🙂 I think that at least a few Popes have been critical of Israel’s policies at times, while still defending Israel’s right to exist.

    My thoughts on Israel have shocked some of my evangelical friends, including when I have pointed out to them that they (my friends) give unqualified support to a regime which sometimes isn’t exactly helpful toward Palestinian Christians! (My friends didn’t seem to be especially aware of the *existence* of Palestinian Christians, much less of how they are treated in Israel.)

    Still listening to the podcast. I dig Texas, though I could not be *completely* comfortable in Houston *or* Austin. The former would likely be too politically conservative for me. The latter would likely be too politically liberal. (I’m sure the Catholic Church’s positions on abortion and same-sex marriage are not hugely popular in Austin. It’s too bad. I think people from Austin are generally thoughtful and might actually agree with much of Pope JPII’s “Theology of the Body,” if they were to really look into it.) I do really love the music scene in Austin. I would be going to concerts all the time, if I were out there and could actually physically get to the shows, with my not being able to drive.

  19. Kenneth,

    On Texas, I can appreciate most of the things that you mentioned, but “football everything”…. yeah, that’s one of the reasons that growing up in Alabama was so difficult for me. As a American man who doesn’t care for football (gasp!) and who loves foreign films and poetry (gasp!), my masculinity, and, probably, my sanity, seemed to be in question for more than a few people in my home state. Also, I was a non-Christian for most of the years that I lived in Alabama, and that did *not* make me popular there. The poor treatment (to say the least) that I received from many professing Christians in my home state played a large role in my not becoming a Christian until later in life. Jennifer Fulwiler, a Catholic convert and author, had a very similar experience as an atheist for much of her life in Texas. Her memoir, “Something Other Than God,” resonated with me in many ways.

    Still planning to reply to you on the other podcast thread. I must say, when I read your assessment of both Pope John Paul II’s *and* Benedict XVI’s Papacies as “disastrous,” my jaw dropped for a bit. I mean, you’ve been a convert to the Church for *how* many years? And you can knowledgeably say that the Papacy of a man who literally helped to change the world with the downfall of communism, and with firing up younger Catholics about their faith, and who wrote some incredible encyclicals, and who appointed many good bishops, and who helped to clean up the moral corruption in many seminaries, and who was recently declared a Saint– you can comfortably call that Papacy “disastrous”?? Hubris much? 🙂

    I’ll reply to the rest of what you wrote on the other thread soon (if you still want me to, that is, hehe!).

  23. As for Israel, it does seem that it was created under questionable circumstances, but a lot of countries have been. I support them vaguely because they are democratic, but I reserve the right to critique them morally – especially of their treatment of fellow Christians.

    I have no opinion of the dad bod thing, this was the first I have heard of it. Although I am very disappointed in Christian’s morally outrageous opinions about it, and believe he should be held accountable! Ha! Just kidding 😉

  24. Nice video, Kenneth. That was one brave black man to perform that experiment. In the cops’ defense, he wasn’t just black. He also had corn rows… 😉

  25. Christopher, I watched the first episode of Rectify. Really enjoyed it. Looking forward to watching more. Thanks for the recommendation.

  26. My wife, obviously, doesn’t consider looks to be all that important! As for me, different things will attract me to a woman initially. Ultimately however, I find virtue to be, in particular, the most beautiful, and lack there of repulsive (no matter how attractive by other standards she may be).

  27. To be fair it would freak me put if I saw ANYONE casually walking down the road with that kind of a weapon lol the cops did exactly what I personally would want them to do…. but that’s mostly because I freaking hate the idea of everyone having their own AR!!!

  28. PS,

    Notice how super gentle the cop was that removed the weapon!?! It was like he was moving a small child. Well done, but I wonder if he would have still wore his kids gloves if there had been no camera?

  29. I thought it was fairly obvious that if you’re a black man carrying anything in your hands, you’re seen as a dangerous felon and probable gang member, if you’re a brown hued guy with a gun, you’re probably a terrorist, and if you’re a white man carrying a bazooka, you’re just a freedom loving patriot exercising his second amendment rights.

  31. Christian,

    Glad you checked out “Rectify” and liked it! I’ve been digging “Bloodline” too. Good show!

    I’ll comment tomorrow on the above video and on the “dad bod” issue. Too tired to do much more of anything tonight. Braving the streets and the drivers of Silver Spring and Wheaton, Maryland, in a wheelchair, as I did today, is a stressful exercise….

  32. Several years ago I was on a trip in the West Bank designed to teach peacemaking skills in the midst of conflict. I was with a group of people who were mostly from California. I kept getting asked, “what is a pastor (they didn’t know I was mildly buzzed or they may have added that) from Texas doing on this trip?” It was then that I realized what Jason said about the way most people across our country view Texans. They figure we are all in love with George Bush and Ted Cruz and John Hagee or even Joel Osteen. We Texans have a lot of work to do to overcome those stereotypes. However, they are stereotypes, so Jason (in the voice of Jon Lovitz) “Get to know me!” Personal relationships will always destroy the barriers created by stereotypes (which usually have some truth in them). Come on down here sometime and we’ll show you some Texas hospitality and serve you some of our famous BBQ. And the Mildly Buzzed Current Pastor will share his Islay with you on his back porch and you will go home saying that it was one of the best times of your life. Seriously.

    Concerning the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, it is a flat out fallacy that the conflict there has been going on since the beginning of time–I think that was the point The Onion was trying to make (and you knew that of course). There were plenty of Jews living in Palestine before 1948 and in many places they were living peacefully among their Muslim and Christian neighbors. The current conflict is really about 100 years or so old and due to the results of the Balfour declaration, the policies of the British Mandate (1922-1948), the Holocaust, American failure to join the British in their efforts to maintain peace during the Mandate, and the UN partition…among other things. You mentioned Israeli “terrorism” (toward the Palestinians?) emerged in the 60s and 70s, but according to Bruce Hoffman in his book “Anonymous Soldiers,” Jewish terrorism especially during the 1940s was a major factor in the creation of the Israeli state (and taught Arabs that terrorism is politically effective).

    Christian: I love it that you said “I’m pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian” or at least something like that. You are pro-human. That’s exactly the attitude that can lead to peace in the middle east. We need people that can understand the complexities and struggles of both peoples and respond with empathy and a strategy that works toward reconciliation between the people in Israel and the Occupied Territories.

    DBO

  33. Interesting video. It does demonstrate a very different response seemingly based on racial appearance. Coming from a country were open carry is not a part of life I rather like that we don’t have people walking down the streets carrying assault rifles. Bad enough having cops carrying weapons more often than the situations seem to justify let alone something normal people can do.

  35. I’m all for 2nd amendment rights, within reason. However I don’t know if I like the idea of citizens open carrying AR-15s. What if, every citizen decided to exercise that right? The more that exercise that right, the more people will feel that they have to exercise that right. It creates an arms race unnecessarily.

    I have several friends who carry concealed hand guns, even to church (PCA). Some of them when they talk about maybe having to use them, seem to relish the idea a little too much. They make me uncomfortable. All I know is people make mistakes, people get upset with one another, and having/wanting guns omnipresent makes the potential for tragedy very high.

  36. Lane, why are you treading on my christian God given right to carry artillery shell on the back of my pick up yo?

    What if, every citizen decided to exercise that right?

    Actually, that is pretty much the stated position of the GOA (Gun Owners of America, an organization that thinks the NRA is too pussy and a sell out organization), according to some of my (of course) Libertarian friends. It’s your duty to protect your freedom. Not some nanny state police department.

    All I know is people make mistakes, people get upset with one another, and having/wanting guns omnipresent makes the potential for tragedy very high.

    Yes, reasonable people would agree with you, sadly, America seems to be lacking people of that nature.

  37. http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2015/05/calvary_chapel_chino_hills_reveal.php

    I’ll go to the red letters for this one:

    5 Also when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by people. Truly I tell you, they have their reward in full already.
    6 But when you pray, go into your [most] private room, and, closing the door, pray to your Father, Who is in secret; and your Father, Who sees in secret, will reward you in the open.

    I don’t understand the need of some people to seek validation of their religious views by the State: whether it comes from a deep insecurity in their faith or whether it comes from a desire to dominate others and force their views upon them, it speaks a lack of faith to me.

  38. Jason and Christian,

    You mentioned how infuriating it is to argue with Calvinists, I can definitely attest to that since it is one of my current hobbies to argue with them.

    Of course they think that you don’t understand the doctrine. Some believe that their “doctrines of grace” ARE the Gospel, and any deviation from these is non-Christian, these guys are the worst (unlike the ones who think that other understandings of theology can also be Christian). From these guy’s perspective, either you don’t understand Calvinism or you are reprobate and are going to hell. So it is kind of charitable from their perspective to accuse you of misunderstanding! In their view, either the Holy Spirit makes you Christian (read Calvinist), or you are going to hell. They also believe that they personally are elect and can never apostatize – which is denying Calvinism. It is a hell of a mindset. Once you become convinced that Calvinism is true, it is very difficult to let go of it. The barriers to questioning your own beliefs are set staggeringly high! To let go of Calvinism to them, is to let go of their rock solid assurance of salvation – their rock solid belief in their specialness.

    To be fair, granting the premises of Calvinism, it is completely internally consistent. It also seems to make a lot of sense of large swaths of Scripture and certain aspects of it have a little historical support. So I do understand the appeal. However, it makes a mockery of the benevolence of God, the freedom of humans, and wasn’t believed in wholesale until the 1500s.

  39. Ok, Kim Kardashian and Beyonce are NOT PLUS SIZE, and the reasons they are considered attractive are not something women can control! Where is the “mom bod” love where women who have saggy stomachs from giving birth and mismatched boobs get accolades for their average bodies? The pressure isn’t necessarily to be “thin” (which is achievable for most women) but to be “hot” which is unattainable for many. The Dadbod is totally achievable for everyone, which is why it is a double standard.

    Either way, no one should need an excuse for how they look! Lordamercy.

  40. Interesting point, mollypockets!

    Personally, I’m all about the mom bod. And mismatched boobs? That’s awesome. You’d never get bored since they both look different! 😉

  41. I think women should wear their stretch marks like a trophy. I hate how society makes them ashamed of them, as if bringing life into this world and making a sacrifice is something to be ashamed of.

  42. Christian,

    I hate how society makes them ashamed of them, as if bringing life into this world and making a sacrifice is something to be ashamed of.

    Yes bring life into the world is incredibly important and should absolutely have no shame associated with it! I will go even further, because I think our society is even worse to women than just giving them a hard time about the way they look.

    I don’t like what our culture communicates to woman. It tells women that to be fully empowered, to have that professional career, all you have to do is chemically neuter yourself during your 20s (aborting any “accidents”). Then struggle with infertility in your 30s, spending 10s of thousands on IVF and adoption, or be childless.

    Why force women into this terrible dilemma? Why do we insist that women change their bodies for the sake of society; why can’t society change for the sake of women? I believe this to be incredibly unfair to women (in fact all of as a society). The workforce and higher education should be completely compatible with women who want to mothers. A woman should not have to act like a man to be “successful”.

  43. Is the Bible a Jewish hoax? Do you ever wonder if the Jewish people hijacked the world? We’ve been brainwashed into believing scripture is inspired, but what if its a compiled hoax? HOW DARE I GO THERE? I can’t help it. I want to know why they are so special? In Romans it says we know God instinctively. So why do we need the bible?Why are the Jews so special? I don’t know if I want to worship a Father that has an apple of his eye, and then little ole me that was grafted into the family…..Jews maybe have pulled off the greatest hoax ever. Maybe I should be the Nazi Wino……….:/

  44. Someone somewhere recently mentioned that the biggest culprit of the demand for women to be ridiculously tiny is the fashion industry, which is mostly run by women and gay men.

    Does this factor matter with respect to the double standard?

  45. It would be impossible. The ‘scriptures’ were compiled over hundreds of years, not much earlier than the Christian New Testament, with significant disagreement and debate over what the scriptures should be, whether a book belonged in the prophets or the writings (which are seen as lesser in authority.)

    The Jewish people are special in their scriptures because they wrote them. It’s their record of oral stories, traditions, and myths recorded by different authors with different agendas and points of view, some of whom related tales of miraculous conquest as proof that God favored them and their ancestors and tales of woe as proof that their ancestors had been unfaithful.

    Christianity had issues with supercesion because when Paul and other anonymous or pseudonymous authors sat down and wrote down their teachings, recollections of Jesus, or other works, Christianity had expanded to the Gentiles and some of them had Jewish backgrounds. There was a question why if the OT cast the Jewish people as God’s Chosen people, why the church was now predominantly Gentile. So came the theory that God set aside the Jews (or, more darkly, cast them aside for unfaithfulness) to give Gentiles the chance to know Him too making them His chosen people.

    Christianity took off really once the Romans adopted it as the official religion and the subsequent collapse of the Empire meant that the church became more powerful as it remained the one institution that preserved knowledge and scholarship and the one institution in common between disparate tribal bands of Europeans who had nothing else in common.

    There was no Jewish conspiracy, and if you read Jewish rabbis and commentaries, I think they have a much healthier view of scripture than many Protestants do.

  46. comradedread , Thank you. I don’t mean to be controversial. I just struggle with things and sometimes need to voice that struggle. It helps to read other’s opinions.

  47. @Jason –

    It’s a vicious circle which has landed us at the thinnest = prettiest paradigm. Couture fashion designers design and cut to one size for runway shows. Designers prize stability above all else because they are making generally one off designs, they can’t tailor it to the models, so models have to fit the clothes and not the other way around. The trend towards thinness started from a visual aesthetic perspective (clean lines, etc) which was then coopted by the rest of society where the male patriarchy reigned supreme.

    That the fashion industry is generally full of women and homosexual men doesn’t play a massive role in it. At least not in the way that you’re implying.

  48. I would rather my wife be fit than plus sized. I’m sure she feels the same about me. I think people just like to whine because they are too lazy to get in shape. “Plus sized” is many times just a code word for “fat ass”. Hit the gym and watch your insecurities melt away.

  50. Kenneth,

    While colloquially “plus size” may indeed mean “fat ass”, just as “theory” does not have the same colloquial meaning as it does to scientists, “plus size” refers to a specific range of sizes and you’d be surprised as just what the industry considers “plus size”.

    Hit the gym and watch your insecurities melt away.

    Actually, weight loss is probably 80% diet and 20% exercise. Hitting the gym don’t do shit unless you eat properly. Not to mention everybody’s metabolism is different, some people are just more genetically blessed than others. People should be accepted for who they are, not what they look like.

  51. And many of the fittest people I know are also the most insecure. Very little insecurity melts away once you start focusing on your body.

  54. “where the male patriarchy reigned supreme”

    Now there is whole other topic. Do the DXP’s dare? I don’t know your culture well enough but in ours the male patriarchy is more to do with feminist spin and religious fundies desperate to believe they are the “head of the home” than anything to do with who calls the shots in most homes.
    The phrase “She Who Must be Obeyed” is well understood as is “a happy wife a happy life”. Men may have many of the official positions in government and companies but few go home to a place where they think that’s its them calling the shots.

    I’m very tired of the habit of blaming men for all that is wrong in society as though our gender has ruled supreme, as though those who have done most of the early childcare, those who have generally had the ear of the most nominally powerful are not part of any of the history of the shaping of our cultures.

    We are all in this together, some things men will control more than women and visa verse. The pressure women place on themselves and each other to conform to a look is not one of those things that men generally control (and rarely benefit from).

    Most of us I think would prefer someone who is happy in their own skin than someone constantly unhappy with themselves.

    Bob

  55. Bob –

    It’s undeniable that men have the upper hand in western culture today. From the fact that women routinely make significantly less money than men, to having their rights severely restricted, there’s pretty much nothing where we can point to and say, “oh, women clearly are in a privileged position.”

    Take a look at this snippet from Last Week with John Oliver from two weeks ago:

    [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIhKAQX5izw&w=560&h=315%5D

    It’s not blaming when we are simply describing reality.

  57. Greg, its quite deniable in a lot of ways. Less paid income does not necessarily equate to access to less money, it may just mean more choice regarding how much of their lives are spend working at a paid job than men typically have. The video you referenced is not available in Australia (not something I’ve noticed before on youtube).

    In Australia men die at a younger age, are far more likely to commit suicide, far more likely to die on the job, far less likely to get significant custody of children in a family breakup and far more likely to pay extensive child support than women. Far more likely to be imprisoned, far more likely to be homeless and a range of other factors that typically don’t signify advantage.

    From what I’ve read the situation is similar for men in the USA (and more so for coloured men). Historically we had and to some extent still have conventions and expectations of gallantry/courtesy towards women (and having been raised with those values I’m not entirely adverse to them) , if there are no empty seats left on public transport or in a meetting and a woman is left standing males are expected to give up their seat, males in my workplace typically stand aside and let women enter doorways, lifts etc first.

    Swap in skin colour rather than race and it’s not the one giving up the seat or standing aside who is the privileged one.

    I’m sure you have heard the term “women and children first” and understand that it’s not entirely fiction. I’m guessing that if a paddle boat had been sinking in the south in years gone by the whites would not have been expected to stand back and give up seats in life boats to coloured people.

    Those things are not women’s fault any more than a lot of the issues men get blamed for are actually men’s fault. They are the result of both some inner drives and the shape of our society just as a woman being more likely to take time out of a career to be the prime carer and to choose to work part time after that are a mixture of inner drive and conventions within society.

    Claims that the shape of society is almost entirely the result of male dominance is not simply describing reality, it’s adding a subjective narrative that on the one hand ignores factors that don’t suit (eg the downsides that men have faced) and at the same time treats women as though they have not made any real contribution to society.

    At worst western societies have been paternalistic in modern history rather than oppressing women. We are in it together, both genders have had perks and disadvantages and restrictions. I’m happy to see changes going on that give us all more choice regardless of gender by very tired of men being blamed for much that we have no more say in that women.

    Bob

  58. Greg,

    Hilarious video! It is simply inexcusable that we don’t have paid maternity leave in this country.

  59. Christian,

    You really think so? In my own experience fitness is a HUGE booster to self esteem. I do know a couple of muscle head ass holes, but I think as a general rule someone with a ripped muscular bod is a lot more confident than Homer Simpson

  60. Yes, I really do think so. In my interactions with people, I have not seen the relation between physical appearance and security as one would think. I would even say that the majority of above average looking people I have known are below average in security. Of course, we may be talking about two different things. Many “good looking” people act very confident, but deep down are quite insecure.

  61. I think as a general rule someone with a ripped muscular bod is a lot more confident than Homer Simpson

    Homer Simpson is probably the most confident person in the universe! Don’t conflate lack of self-awareness with self-confidence though.

    And I’m with Jason here, you have to look at the psychology of someone who is spending that many hours in the gym, retooling their lives so that they’re pounding back thousands upon thousands of calories in protein shakes and chicken breast. Now, if they’re training for competition and it’s their job to be a body builder that’s one thing but most of the muscle heads aren’t doing it for that reason. This is all a sidetrack though.

    Here are a couple points of clarification and thoughts from the podcast now that I finally found some time to listen to it:

    1. It’s the Anti-Defamation League that Jason was referring to, though I wouldn’t say that they’re strictly a lobbying group. Though there is a lot of pro-Zionist lobbying dollars sloshing around Washington.

    2. Somewhat as a result (but also thanks to Bible thumpers), Israel is actually the #1 recipient of US foreign aid despite the fact that they stole the nuke from America and to this day continues to spy on the US.

    3. There is a difference between Pro-Israel and Pro-Zionist. As someone mentioned above, as usual, the troubles between the Israelis and Palestinians can largely be traced to Europeans. Just as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan were created arbitrarily after World War II, so was Israel.

    4. The fact that Jason brought up Kim Kardashian and Beyoncé as plus size women shows just how distorted the conversation has gotten. They may have fat asses but they are emphatically not plus sized! This is plus sized: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2996809/She-s-plus-size-world-s-answer-Kim-Kardashian-s-snapped-design-Boohoo-Nadia-Aboulhosn.html

  62. Christian,

    That’s interesting! I played basketball in college and trained in mma since then. I’m currently fatter than I’ve ever been and it feels awful lol have you experienced both sides or have you always been skinny and fit?

  63. I don’t like being fat. Over the past 5 years, I’ve fluctuated between 8% and (probably) 30% body fat. Of course it feels better to be at 8%. However, I don’t think that makes a person more “secure.” It may make them more confident to take off their shirt, but in my experience, people who spend a lot of time focusing on their outward appearance are usually pretty insecure.

  64. Personally speaking, I’ve always felt embarrassed and awkward around people whether I’ve weighted 255 lbs. or 169 lbs. My fitness level has had very little impact on my self-esteem.

  65. To me that’s like saying someone who reads many books or has a doctorate has low self esteem. Don’t we all gain confidence when we become the best versions of ourself? Say what you want about imperfections being beautiful I would rather my wife be smoking hot!!! Just like I would rather her take an interest in some intellectual activities/hobbies over watching desperate housewives or whatever

  66. You’re in for some disappointing times as you and your wife age. Hopefully you learn how superficial beauty is before you get much older.

  67. Attractiveness and ‘hotness’ are subjective.

    A good personality or a fun personality is more attractive to me than supermodel looks. No matter how much fun time you spend in bed with a supermodel, at some point, you’re going to have to talk to her.

  68. Not to pile on cuz I assume comraderead is older (and Christian is a couple years older) than my 35 but some of my most self confident times was when I didn’t care how much I weighed (and therefore probably when I was the most overweight). Now that I’m older (and not much wiser), I have to work so much harder to stay get into shape and I find that my personal self confidence is lower than when I was younger and actually didn’t care.

    One final thought on the whole mombod/dadbod discussion: that there was even a conversation just shows how skewed society is.

  69. Christian,

    Are intelligence and personality also superficial? We develop those just the same as we do our fitness. I feel like people like to poo poo on fitness to make themselves feel better. There is certainly no science behind these kinds of claims. Ask any psychologist or sociologist and they will tell you it’s just a fact of life that your confidence increases the healthier you are. It’s not just an illusion either. Why WOULDNT you feel better if you were in shape?!? I think the mom bod dad bod thing is ridiculous because BOTH should be discouraged. It seems like yall are saying BOTH should be just fine. That’s insane. People have crappy bodies (most of the time) because they are lazy and undisciplined. That’s not “ok” any more than filling your mind with nonsense is OK.

  70. At least part of the problem I believe you’re having is confusing health with appearance. Many “ripped” individuals are not healthy, and many non-“ripped” people with 20% body fat are very healthy.

    What’s superficial is judging someone by how they look, and if that’s a large part of your criteria, then I hope you’re able to somehow only ever date young people, because superficial beauty fades for everyone as they get older.

    In my opinion, it’s much deeper issues that cause someone to be insecure. It’s not if they think they look good. Many of the more “beautiful” people I know are quite insecure, and many of the “average” people I know are quite secure. Looking at someone and thinking they’re secure or that they ought to be because they’re good looking and have a six pack is pretty immature and lacking in understanding of human nature.

  71. Many “ripped” individuals are not healthy, and many non-“ripped” people with 20% body fat are very healthy.

    True story, I knew someone who was an ultra marathoner who died of a heart attack. Apparently his ultra marathoning exacerbated his genetically enlarged heart problem.

  72. Christian,

    I understand what you are saying. I just think that a lot of this kind of dialog is promulgated by people who suck at taking care of themselves. If someone has a million dollars in their bank account I will make certain judgements on what that person is probably like. If they have 2 or 3 PhDs I will make a different kind of judgement. If they only read the funny papers and can’t have a convo beyond reality television and soap operas I will make yet another judgement. The truth is that people tell you something about themselves by the way they look, speak, dress, etc. If a man has a “dad-bod” that person is mostly likely that way because they are lazy, undisciplined, and unorganized/ not regimented. We can make this judgment pretty safely because we know that most people wouldn’t CHOOSE to look that way. They just are the way they are because they can’t or won’t take care of themselves. You don’t think there is any truth to that?

  73. With all that being said, I want my partner to be fit because I want someone who is healthy. I also want someone who is smart and a whole host of other things. Is that selfish? I don’t think so. I don’t think people are selfish or superficial for wanting a desirable and healthy mate.

  74. Kenneth,

    If someone has a million dollars in their bank account I will make certain judgements on what that person is probably like. If they have 2 or 3 PhDs I will make a different kind of judgement. If they only read the funny papers and can’t have a convo beyond reality television and soap operas I will make yet another judgement. The truth is that people tell you something about themselves by the way they look, speak, dress, etc.

    I think there is truth to that, but you’re talking about two different things. Judging someone else by what they present to you and how that person feels about themselves. Take an insecure person and add 5 million dollars. They’re still not going to be “secure.” Add good looks and ripped abs and that doesn’t mean they’re going to be any more secure. All it will mean is that other people may think they’re more secure. If you actually know those people though, you’ll probably find that all those types of things don’t really contribute all that much to a person’s well-being.

  75. If a man has a “dad-bod” that person is mostly likely that way because they are lazy, undisciplined, and unorganized/ not regimented. We can make this judgment pretty safely because we know that most people wouldn’t CHOOSE to look that way.

    OR. Or they could be a parent. Choosing to look that way, may just be them choosing other things as being more important. Like trying to get some sleep after being woken up every 2 hours the night before. Or spending time with kids or their wife after working 2 jobs to provide for them. Or earning that PhD. Or taking care of a sick family member. Not everyone has time to workout constantly to fight off that last 10 pounds. The fact that you would immediately jump to the conclusion that they must be lazy or undisciplined says more about you than them.

    That said, they really could be just lazy and undisciplined. 🙂

  76. Or they could be a parent

    DING DING DING DING.

    I’d love to spend a couple of hours at the gym everyday and maybe an hour in a martial arts program every night.

    Except I work, and I’m the cook for the family at night. And I’d like to see and spend time with my kids at night before they go to bed and then I’d like to get a hour or so in with my spouse sans kids so we can talk or connect or veg and watch a TV show we like.

    My weekends are filled with kids too. Maybe when the kids are a bit older and they’re ready to take some karate classes, I’ll go with them, but yeah, until then, folks are going to have to live with dad having extra weight on him.

    But, also, for the record, as an ex-fundamentalist, I still do have a horrible self-image. Because you can only hear “Everything good you do is worthless” and “You can’t do anything with God” and “God is pissed off at you and will torture you forever unless you live life exactly how we say” so many times without having some effect on your self-esteem.

  77. I have a 14 year old, a 17 year old, and an 18 year old, and I do both mom and dad roles. I work full time, do all the grocery shopping and cooking, all the kids’ sports activities, try to spend time with them, not to mention DXP and side jobs I take on to provide for everyone. I look good with a t-shirt on, but I basically have a dad bod. Most men have “dad bods” and most women have “mom bods.” I’d be willing to bet it’s less because of laziness than you think it is. Perhaps there are just more important things to them than trying to look like movie stars. (Movie stars which don’t even look like movie stars when they’re not in front of the camera!)

  78. Damn y’all are harsh. There are people out there for whom being overweight is a medical condition. No choices, no rationalities, just genetics man.

  79. There are people out there for whom being overweight is a medical condition.

    And who invented those “conditions” so that they could continue to be lazy? That’s right, fat people!

  80. Christian,

    I agree with you on the self confidence thing. It is possible to be rich, good looking, ripped, and totally insecure. However, I am confident that those things do in fact help boost self esteem. I don’t have any studies to prove it… But i still think im right 🙂

    I totally sympathize with what you all are saying. I’ve got a 1 year old, a 3 year old and a 5 year old. Most months I’m in school fulltime, work fulltime, AND still raise my kids as an active daddy. I don’t workout anymore and I’m easily 20 or 30 lbs overweight. In other words, I have a dad-bod!!! BUT that’s not because I’m too busy, it’s because I’m lazy. I COULD watch what I’m eating and find 45 min to workout even with my crazy schedule. I just take the easy road, eat quick unhealthy meals, and spend my spare time relaxing as much as I can. That tells you something about me. It tells you that at least in some aspects of my life I’m not very disciplined. I don’t have the look I desire because I don’t have the discipline to pursue it.

    I can only speak from personal experience. When I was in better physical health I was waaaaay more confident and secure with myself. Maybe that’s just me though

  82. Christian “Perhaps there are just more important things to them than trying to look like movie stars.” – spot on.

    Leaving aside those who just let it all go and sticking with those who make some effort to stay in a shape that’s not just round (which is a shape).

    Life for most of us is a juggling act balancing a bunch of competing priorities. Also spot on the point that was made earlier on the 80% food, 20% exercise. If we don’t have the diet part in control then keeping toned takes an inordinate amount of exercise. For those with families the diet part is complicated by also meeting the needs of others in the family who may have way different metabolisms and need to eat that low cal, high protein diet that helps an 40 or 50 something office worker keep the weight down. Preparing multiple multiple dishes for a meal can be done but it’s yet another part of the priority juggle.

    The claims of lazy and undisciplined make some assumptions about priorities that could be turned right around. Those with mum or dad bods might wonder what important stuff those with the ripped and toned bodies are not putting enough effort in to allow the space to focus on that toning. It might just be that different people have different priorities, different passions and that there is a range of choices and behaviours that while not the “best” in their own space make sense within the context of an overall life balance.

    Bob

  83. Exactly. If I want to be ripped, I can get almost there by working out intensely for an hour and a half a day and tracking every macro-nutrient I can in a food diary and eating every single meal different than my kids because I’m eating 50/30/20 protein, carbs, fat, and I can make all of my lunches for work and avoid happy hours, etc. If I do all of that (which I’ve done in the past and is extremely difficult to maintain) then I can look pretty darn good.

    Or I can be somewhat active, shoot some hoops with my kids, hike with my girlfriend, ride my bike, get on the elliptical I have downstairs from time to time, eat relatively health and not drink too much and have a “dad bod,” which is what I do. Welcome to your forties.

  84. When I was in better physical health I was waaaaay more confident and secure with myself.

    My security isn’t based on how I look. It’s just not. Maybe that’s what happens when you don’t have eyebrows and eyelashes and hair, but I don’t mind, because my personality rocks. The good thing for me is that when I’m 75, I’ll still have my personality and my security. You won’t have your looks though. What about your security?

  85. Who says I won’t have my looks when I’m 75? I picture myself aging like Clooney or Robert Redford. I’ll have a 70 year old six pack like Heraldo Rivera. It’s gonna be great. I’ll come visit you in your old folks home. You’ll probably have some kind of degenerative brain disease so your personality will probably suck by that time…. but maybe o can sneak the sinners prayer on ya in your weakened state? 😉

  86. Kenneth, you look very young in your picture. Aging is a bitch. Don’t get too confident there laddie.

  89. Kenneth,

    Thought some people might find this interesting

    Very interesting. I’m down to get back on the carousel. So a life long atheist goes to college, gets influenced by people in authoritative positions over her whom she “admired” then comes to the conclusion, through evidence of course, that God exists and not only does he exist but that “[he] was loving and just. God could not be perfectly just unless I—just like everyone else—was made to suffer for the bad things I’d done.”? Did I get that right?

    This scenario reminded me of a commentary Sam Harris did on a newsweek article about a neurosurgeon who said he experienced heaven during a bacterial meningitis-induced coma:

    http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven

    I also really liked the last line of the post, “We really need everyone to pull their weight now, because everywhere you look, the truth of Christianity is under attack.” Toe the line boys! They’re a’comin for ya and your jesus!

    Btw, us Texans, no matter what worldview we have, need to stand together against the bigotry and hate coming from the Pacific Northwest….

  90. I very much believe in God. I don’t believe in the Christian God. I believe God
    is benevolent. It hurts too much to believe in a Dad that would burn his kids just because they say FUCK. I am a parent myself. I’ve raised a boy and a girl and I loved them through their most difficult times in life. Even when they slammed doors in my face and hated me, I loved them. I can’t relate to the Christian God. I am not an atheist. I am just trying to find a place to fit in where God loves like humans do.

  91. Wino,

    That’s very interesting and good for you! I find that many times people rule out christianity for bad reasons. They have a problem with hell, the exodus, deutoronomy, genesis, they think the new testament contains contradictions etc etc. These are all interesting objections to biblical inerrancy , but they are not good reasons to reject Christianity in general. I would say that the only *good* reason for giving up on the Christian religion is rejecting the ressurection of Christ. Yet I so rarely hear anyone even mention that as a reason for no longer believing. Have you ever given the topic a nice hard look? Perhaps over a nice glass of cabernet? If not, I certainly recommend that you do!

  92. Mike,

    The sad fact for you us that a great many cosmologists, mathemeticians, and astrophysicists, find the design of the universe strong evidence for a diety. I think it is strong evidence.

    Have you read Dr. Alexander’s response to Sam Harris?

    http://iands.org/news/news/research-news/888-eben-alexander-answers-skeptics-criticisms.html

    Eben Alexander teaches at places like Harvard, Duke, Standford, etc… Sam Harris…. writes interesting books with funny jokes about fundamentalists… the two aren’t even in the same league

  93. Kenneth,

    The truth is there are just as many, maybe more, reputable and great cosmologists, mathematicians and astrophysicists who, to date, do not/cannot accept that there is any strong evidence for the existence of a deity (no less the Christian diety) by observing the currently known universe. From their perspective, to assert otherwise, based on the observable universe, is an exercise in futility and is fallacious at best, no matter how bad the other side wants it to be true. They can fight it out all they want but at the end of the day they both might be wrong, who knows. I don’t. You don’t.

    Eben Alexander teaches at places like Harvard, Duke, Standford, etc

    Cool story, bro. Alexander’s response still doesn’t address the fundamental flaws Harris points out with Alexander’s out of body experience. This is a classic move out of the William Lane Craig playbook though – instead of addressing critical points of your opponent, address something about his background, education, or an out of context quote in a snarky manner thereby making the audience forget about the real issue at hand. brilliant. #wlcfanboy

  94. Mike,

    Did you read Alexander’s response? It directly addresses each and everyone of his points. Sam just didn’t know what he was talking about and wrote his critique based off of a Newsweek story. Sam won’t debate him because he knows he is out of his league lol its like richard dawkins trying to call out Francis Collins on how unscientific God is. These new atheists are talented “popular science writers” while the people they ridicule are actually some of the best people “doing” science. Not impressed.

  95. Christians are so eager and desperate to debate non-Christians and guys like Harris, Krauss, Ehrman, Barker oblige and indulge them most of the time. A cynical view is that these non-Christian academics only do it to promote their latest book or foundation. A less cynical view is that they want the audience to start thinking for themselves. Probably a mix of both. The reality though is that Christians need it. They need an enemy to “take down” or “crush”. It keeps them relevant and provides them with self-validation. The ultimate form of ironic narcissism.

  96. Haha your crazy dude. The largest religion in the world doesn’t need to “crush” a worldview that only 1 percent of the population holds. There have always been atheists out their in the fringes. More power to you. It’s not my fault the majority of the best minds in history of clung to the cross. Atheist little man syndrome rearing it’s head again.

  98. It’s interesting how you call them “popular science writers” then turn around and call them “atheists out there in the fringes”.

    The “nones” (no religious affiliation) demographic is growing man, whether you like it or not. Church/Mass/whatever has always been, for many that go, about keeping the status quo. It’s just what you do because your parents do it, their parents did it and their parents before them did it or you think you’ll go to hell if you don’t go. People are starting to realize that, when they take a step back and really think about what they’re reading and the songs they are signing, it doesn’t make sense and that they can live happy productive lives outside the confines of religion. This may not scare the mighty Roman Catholic church, they’ve destroyed and conquered more formidable cultures before, but I think it scares the shit out of evangelical christians (your brethren who think you’ll burn just as bad as me).

    I’ll go back to the quote I posted earlier from that Wintery Knight’s blog that you posted that I think sums up the general feeling of evangelicals in America today, “We really need everyone to pull their weight now, because everywhere you look, the truth of Christianity is under attack.”

    Or this one, “It is so important for university students to see Christian professors on campus. And failing that, it’s important that we bring Christian speakers in to debate non-Christian speakers on the important issues. This will not happen unless we recognize how important it is, and then make a plan to achieve it.”

  99. I think it’s true that secularism is getting a lot if not most of the lime light these days. Religion is in many ways not the only game in town any longer and so there are many people who prefer to just not pick a side. I think that liberal wishy washy christianity shares much if the blame here. The more your denomination just perfectly reflects whatever culture you are brought up in the less people feel the need to identify with a particular group. In any case, I still maintain that most people who leave the faith do so for horrible reasons. So long as we can compete in the market place of ideas in top universities we are fine.

  100. I think that liberal wishy washy christianity shares much if the blame here.

    And I think that conservative Christianity shares much of the blame. It’s a rather ugly visage they’ve painted on God and Jesus Christ through their conduct, words, lack of action, and inability to accept others or realize that there is a separation of church and state in this country, casting of their opposition as Satanic, and lacking the realization that many people would find living in their “Christian” nation to be a rather terrifying prospect.

    And let’s not forget institutional corruption in the face of pedophilia since that seems to be a topic returning to the news lately. It’s not only Catholics that try to save face. Though the reason you’re finding a liberalization in some places like Ireland is because the church has lost moral authority in the eyes of the people, as well it and many other churches should.

    These are all interesting objections to biblical inerrancy , but they are not good reasons to reject Christianity in general.

    If one can no longer trust the foundation or one of the major pillars of Christianity as being a faithful witness of God and possessing moral authority, it certainly does argue against Christianity as we’ve understood it.

  101. Perhaps, but only as you have understood it. It just doesn’t follow that because I’ve come to doubt hell, Noah’s ark, talking snakes, etc. that Jesus didn’t rise from the dead. So long as that central doctrine remains there is no reason to abandon christianity.

    And of course it’s obvious to everyone that a historical text need not be infallible to supply evidence for the ressurection.

  102. And of course it’s obvious to everyone that a historical text need not be infallible to supply evidence for the ressurection.

    It should also be obvious that such manuscripts which claim to be historical records, but contain errors and/or tales of miraculous events also require a higher standard of proof to be trusted as accurate in specific claims.

  104. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    This sounds so commonsensical, doesn’t it? But in fact it is demonstrably false. Probability theorists studying what sort of evidence it would take to establish a highly improbable event came to realize that if you just weigh the improbability of the event against the reliability of the testimony, we’d have to be sceptical of many commonly accepted claims. Rather what’s crucial is the probability that we should have the evidence we do if the extraordinary event had not occurred.3 This can easily offset any improbability of the event itself. In the case of the resurrection of Jesus, for example, this means that we must also ask, “What is the probability of the facts of the empty tomb, the post-mortem appearances, and the origin of the disciples’ belief in Jesus’ resurrection, if the resurrection had not occurred?” It is highly, highly, highly, improbable that we should have that evidence if the resurrection had not occurred.

    Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/stephen-law-on-the-non-existence-of-jesus-of-nazareth#ixzz3aytgNETj

  105. Without even touching on the date and authorship of the gospels, let’s flip this quote a bit:

    What is the probability that the old Canaanites would believe in the annual death and resurrection of Ba’al if it didn’t really happen?

    What is the probability of the facts of Mohammed’s ascension into heaven and his disciples beliefs in such if it didn’t really happen?

    What is the probability of the facts of the golden tablets Joseph Smith translated into the book of Mormon and his disciples beliefs and willingness to die for such if it weren’t really true and didn’t happen?

    People can be quite convinced of many things, even regarding events they recently saw happen. Memory is a odd thing that way. You’d think an intelligent designer would have given us better and more reliable storage. 😉

    Maybe He’ll upgrade it in version 2.0.

  106. A common refrain in Christian’s and my discussions centers on the fact that supernatural phenomena aren’t the same as natural ones. When the same level of proof is demanded for something supernatural as for something natural, the question is begged because the implicit assumption is that general and special revelation are the same, and the way to know them is the same.

    But belief in supernatural ideas like the resurrection is just that: a belief (“I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ… who rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.”). It doesn’t need to be “proven” the way gravity does, because it’s not that kind of claim.

    So it seems to me the discussion needs to move on from “Prove to me the resurrection empirically” to something closer to “Is it rational to believe in things that can’t be proven in an empirical way?”

    Maybe it’s not. But that’s the real issue, I think.

  107. So it seems to me the discussion needs to move on from “Prove to me the resurrection empirically” to something closer to “Is it rational to believe in things that can’t be proven in an empirical way?”

    Seems more reasonable than the apologetics approach. Requires an admission that you don’t know everything, that you do make a leap of faith, and leaves open the door for others with differing opinions to be correct too.

    More humility, less certitude.

  108. Right. And once we all agree that everyone believes certain things as “articles of faith” of sorts, we can recognize that in many ways we are in the same epistemic boat regarding some pretty big issues.

    Modernism sucks.

  109. Kenneth,

    I finally replied to you more fully on Vatican II over at the comments for the Michael Hernandez podcast, but for some reason, my comment is in moderation. Maybe that automatically happens with comments on older threads? I don’t know. Hopefully, it will be allowed through soon.

  110. It was in moderation because of the amount of links you included (we’re protecting ourselves against spam). I just approved it.

  111. Mike,

    The “nones” are definitely growing in the Western world. However, In the global South, however, people are coming to Christian faith in droves. As this article describes in detail, Christianity is not dying, but its growth is decidedly shifting. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/05/20/think-christianity-is-dying-no-christianity-is-shifting-dramatically/

    Now, one can certainly accept the common secularist view that these people are embracing Christianity because many of them are financially poorer, and less formally educated, than many people in the West. I hear this kind of thinking from some of my friends.

    However, this view overlooks some important facts. The scientific method itself, historically, was built much more on religious than atheistic presuppositions. The model of the Western university comes much more from religious believers than from agnostics or atheists. As do hospitals, historically speaking.

    Also, the Christians whom I have come into contact with from the global South are hardly uneducated people who are apt to radically change their thinking and their lives for something without a solid foundation.

    Last, I don’t personally know any native Chinese people, but Christianity is growing at an amazing rate in that country, far beyond anything in the Western world, and it is growing, largely, *among the more formally educated*.

  113. On the questions of epistemology and humility: I’m not an advocate of the “bludgeon non-Christian people with apologetics unless and until they (seemingly) submit, possibly just to shut me up” school of thinking. 🙂 I see too much of that kind of non-dialogue on the internet, and I try to not to contribute to it, at least not in a way that would encourage it!

    At the same time, I do think that there is a place for Christian apologetics, and it is *not* just for bolstering Christians in their faith. Jennifer Fulwiler, a life-long atheist and relatively recent Christian/Catholic convert, came to faith partially through her reading of Christian apologetics. Her memoir, “Something Other Than God,” strongly resonated with me, both as a former atheist, and in my largely poor experience with Christians in the deep South (Jennifer is from Texas; I was born and raised in Alabama), *and* in critical thinking playing a role in my disavowing of secularism and embracing of Christianity. Great book. Very funny too!

    Catholicism really does have a balance of faith and reason that I have not found in any other Christian tradition. I’m not saying that there aren’t great, profound Protestant theologians (there are many!), but the best thinking that I ever found in Protestantism simply can’t compare with the depth of Catholic philosophical and theological thought. I wish that every former Protestant fundamentalist would carefully read and reflect on Pope John Paul II’s encyclical on Faith and Reason. I know that is incredibly unlikely, given many factors, including short attention spans today, but I can wish! 🙂 http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091998_fides-et-ratio.html

    Here’s an excerpt from the document:

    INTRODUCTION – “KNOW YOURSELF”

    1. In both East and West, we may trace a journey which has led humanity down the centuries to meet and engage truth more and more deeply. It is a journey which has unfolded—as it must—within the horizon of personal self-consciousness: the more human beings know reality and the world, the more they know themselves in their uniqueness, with the question of the meaning of things and of their very existence becoming ever more pressing. This is why all that is the object of our knowledge becomes a part of our life. The admonition Know yourself was carved on the temple portal at Delphi, as testimony to a basic truth to be adopted as a minimal norm by those who seek to set themselves apart from the rest of creation as “human beings”, that is as those who “know themselves”.

    Moreover, a cursory glance at ancient history shows clearly how in different parts of the world, with their different cultures, there arise at the same time the fundamental questions which pervade human life: Who am I? Where have I come from and where am I going? Why is there evil? What is there after this life? These are the questions which we find in the sacred writings of Israel, as also in the Veda and the Avesta; we find them in the writings of Confucius and Lao-Tze, and in the preaching of Tirthankara and Buddha; they appear in the poetry of Homer and in the tragedies of Euripides and Sophocles, as they do in the philosophical writings of Plato and Aristotle. They are questions which have their common source in the quest for meaning which has always compelled the human heart. In fact, the answer given to these questions decides the direction which people seek to give to their lives.

    2. The Church is no stranger to this journey of discovery, nor could she ever be. From the moment when, through the Paschal Mystery, she received the gift of the ultimate truth about human life, the Church has made her pilgrim way along the paths of the world to proclaim that Jesus Christ is “the way, and the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6). It is her duty to serve humanity in different ways, but one way in particular imposes a responsibility of a quite special kind: the diakonia of the truth.1 This mission on the one hand makes the believing community a partner in humanity’s shared struggle to arrive at truth; 2 and on the other hand it obliges the believing community to proclaim the certitudes arrived at, albeit with a sense that every truth attained is but a step towards that fullness of truth which will appear with the final Revelation of God: “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully” (1 Cor 13:12).

  114. Comrade,

    Without even touching on the date and authorship of the gospels, let’s flip this quote a bit:

    What is the probability that the old Canaanites would believe in the annual death and resurrection of Ba’al if it didn’t really happen?

    About that. Craig is pointing out that the empty tomb, post mortem appearances, and ORIGIN of the disciples belief in the ressurection is highly improbable if He is not risen. You seem to be picking on that last one. Obviously people can believe all kinds of things and be wrong. In that sense, a belief is hardly evidence of anything. However, things are a little different with the disciples. For one many of these people had every predisposition NOT to be looking for a risen Messiah. The Jews has no expectation of a dying and rising God man. The apostle Paul was not only one of these jews, but was also actively persecuting these crazy christ followers. It’s a bit different than Joseph Smith, Mohommed, and the canaanites. Background info is important.

  116. Craig is pointing out that the empty tomb, post mortem appearances, and ORIGIN of the disciples belief in the ressurection is highly improbable if He is not risen.

    Not really.

    Women stricken by grief and regret walk early in the dark morning towards a tomb and find it empty. An empty tomb becomes THE empty tomb. A gardener becomes the risen Christ. Jesus suddenly appears in a locked room where everyone is huddled in fear experiencing strong emotions. Add in time, distance, and retellings, and pretty soon a vision of Christ becomes a bodily encounter.

    Even Paul’s reported vision changed with the retelling. Memory is like that.

    I’m still think there was a resurrected Christ more often than not, because I hope for resurrection. I hope for reconciliation. I hope for a kingdom of hope, joy, peace, love, and harmony. I’m okay, I think, admitting that I’ll never have proof that it exists. I’ll never get the chance that Thomas supposedly had.

  118. “But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

    Faith and hope are linked. I don’t think one should live under delusions, but we all hope and wait for things. I don’t see how hoping for a resurrection because one wishes that the story of Jesus of Nazareth were true is a bad thing, so long as one realizes that it is hope and faith.

  119. Led Zeppelin! Excellent “like” Jason. And When the Levee Breaks is also my jam, Christian.

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