Podcast #58: Fratboys, Demons, and Trolls

79 August 23, 2015 by

58_finalThis episode of Drunk Ex-Pastors begins with Jason asking Christian to diagnose him after he discovers the depths of his own duplicity and greed, after which we banter a bit about the various presidential hopefuls. Christian then shares an interesting insight that he “read somewhere” (ahem) about our present dystopic existence. We take a listener’s call asking us to reflect a bit about DXP’s one-year anniversary and the highs and lows we’ve experienced doing this podcast (the lows were easier to remember for Jason than the highs were), and then Christian describes his day meeting his son’s new fraternity brothers at the U-Dub. We answer questions about demons, as well as about who Christian turns to in times of difficulty now that he hates Jesus (when Jason finds himself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to him speaking words of wisdom). We get a good laugh out of the infamous Target Troll, after which Jason shares his bieber about lonely women with nothing better to do than yell at him, while Christian’s bieber builds upon his frustration with steps (only this time it’s not about escalators but about not looking awkward while descending them).

Also, there’s nothing like the scent of stale beer and balls in the morning.

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79 Comments (click here to leave a comment)

  1. Christian, your discussion about demons and fear of death reminded me of a book. It is called The Slavery of Death written by Richard Beck a professor and Chair of the Department of Psychology at Abilene Christian University. It takes a look at the anxiety of death has on a person. Beck’s thesis is that the fear of death, observed and analyzed by modern psychology, has demonically enslaved humanity and ensures that we will live selfish and violent lives. Salvation is thus found when death is defeated through Christ’s resurrection and his people, no longer afraid, are free to love sacrificially. He leans heavily on Eastern Orthodox theology of sin and atonement (which is quite different from evangelical views) along with modern psychology.

    Would you read this book if I sent you a copy? I would like to hear your take on the ideas in the book, especially considering your particular Christian theological background and current rejection of it. If not, I won’t bother sending.

  2. I have definitely had that experience you described while sleeping. When I was back in the Navy (pre-Christian days), I was renting a room in a friend’s house. I remember dreaming that I was sitting in a chair in our berthing on the ship. It was dark and there were people hovering over me. I then woke up in my room, paralyzed. I’ve experience being paralyzed upon waking up before, awful experience to not be able to move. However this time, I saw someone lean over me in the bed – a dark silhouette. I swear there was someone in the room! I tried, and strained to start screaming at it, but couldn’t get myself to make a noise. After I was able to start moving again, I quickly turned on the light and no one was there. I even searched the house. I was so spooked by it that I moved out a week later, moving my stuff into storage and moving back onto the ship. On a side note, moving out ended up being a good financial move. That was because we went on what was supposed to be a 5 week cruise the week after I moved out that unexpected turned into a 6 month deployment (Bush decided to start the Iraq war). I would be embarrassed to say I believed in ghosts following this, but I didn’t have a good explanation for my experience. Reflecting on it later, after becoming a Christian and knowing the sorts of stuff I was up to at the time, I would say that it may have been a demon. I don’t know.

  3. • I’m starting to think Donald Trump might take it all, and if he drops out, I imagine his support will go to Ted Cruz. The sort of people who love Trump do hate Bush and they want a blatant asshole. Ted Cruz will fit that bill.

    • The only Bush I’d vote for would be Dick Bush.

    • Vodka, Ginger Ale, and Lime Juice is something I’d highly recommend.

    • Maybe we can get a race between a Socialist (Sanders) and a Fascist (Trump).

    • Your callers sound more drunk than you do.

    • Jason, I’m with you politically, and I believe Jesus is the Son of God who rose from the dead, I could even see praying to saints to put in a good word with the Big Guy for you, I just can’t get over the hurdle of having to submit my logic and understanding of scripture to the whims of the men with funny hats. 🙂

    • Yep. If I could have a do over, I’d definitely skip Bible College and go to a four-year college or even a trade school where I would learn to cook or build shit or run electrical, you know something more useful than knowing Chuck Smith’s position on the rapture and how meek and mild Jesus of Nazareth is going to come back as fucking Rambo on steroids… which would just be regular Rambo, but you get the point.

    • Oh well, it all worked out in the end. I love my wife and kids and work for a great company.

    • I used to be terrified of demons and hell. I grew up in a fundamentalist church, so demons were everywhere. And I grew up during the Satanic Panic (which you guys should talk about some time), so everything in pop culture was a fiendish plot by the devil to ‘open the door’ so his demons could rush in and possess you. And let’s not even get into Frank Peretti’s books.

    These days, I realize that it’s probably bullshit. The “demon possessed” are most likely mentally ill, and there’s enough evil inside of mankind to explain the horrors of history without dragging in supernatural forces as an explanation. And D&D did not lead to demonic possession. It led to eating pizza with friends and arguing about Elves.

    • Sleep Paralysis. Your brain becomes active, but you can’t move. I had it as a child periodically and was convinced it was demons. But there is a medical explanation for it.

    • Does one need a third party to tell him that murder and rape are wrong? I don’t think so.

    • What would I do if I were in a plane plummeting to Earth? “Hey, Jesus, if my youth pastor and the Catholic Church happened to be right, I’m sorry about all the masturbation.”

    • There is nothing more annoying than a zealous fundamentalist convert of any stripe. That’s why I continue to remain suspicious of Paul.

    • I prefer to think of my critiques of fundamentalism as my ‘anti-testimony’. Everyone has one. “I used to believe in a literal six day creation, but then one day someone handed me a book. A special book. It was by Carl Sagan. Praise Science!”

  4. “There is nothing more annoying than a zealous fundamentalist convert of any stripe. That’s why I continue to remain suspicious of Paul.”

    lol!

  5. Jason, except for your practical leniency toward sexual morality and particularly your post-modernism (to which I am very leery, yet find your discussions of interesting) we are close – well maybe that isn’t too close. Lately, the person I find myself in most agreement with both theologically and politically is Mark Shea (with whom you did a few radio shows).

  6. It sounds interesting, Lane. I’ve had issues with my heart for most of my life, so I believe that I think about death more than the normal person. I feel like I could die any day, and I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised. Anyway, my only issue I’d take with the author’s thesis as you’ve presented it is that pretty much every other religion can claim the same victory over death. Personally, I think that’s one of the reasons we have religions, because people have such a terrible time dealing with the idea of death. That’s why each religion addresses it as (usually) a main part of the religion.

    So, in essence, the study of the anxiety that death has on someone is interesting, but the answer being Christ’s resurrection (as opposed to every other religion’s version of victory over death) loses me a bit. How much of the book is on that last part?

  7. Oh, the book is theological throughout. It’s potential value is presenting a different take on Christian theology (especially on how sin and the Cross work), and providing interesting insights from his knowledge of psychology. Leah Libresco, who use to be a prominent atheist blogger (converted to Catholicism around the same time as Jason), mentioned that insights made in the book helped change her perception of Christianity helping to open the door to her conversion.

  10. I never got around to commenting on last week’s podcast but since you guys are pining once again for Bernie Sanders (and honestly, I have a lot of time for Sanders being that we both have socialistic tendencies) but his record on civil rights is pretty spotty and it is also a fact that Sanders’ base of support is largely in the NE where there aren’t a lot of black people. Anyway, this is what I was going to post last week:

    While the Black Lives Matters interruption was partly about Sanders, it was more about Sanders’ supporters — who if you haven’t noticed are pretty fucking white. in fact, one of the reasons why Sanders will not come close once we get out of the Northeast is because he basically has zero support amongst minorities. And it’s a problem that he’s not really done a whole lot to address.

    I also found this to be pretty true as well: http://www.ginandtacos.com/2015/08/23/par-for-the-terrible-course/

  11. Cruz certainly has the “fuck you” sneering attitude that Republicans love but his base of appeal isn’t enough to overcome the pressure that would topple Trump.

    The point about trade school is one that I also have a lot of time for — as I am always fond of saying, jobs like carpentry, plumbing, or electrical are ones that will never be outsourced since someone in a call centre on the other side of the world can’t reach through the phone to fix my leaky faucet.

  12. Yeah, your not the first person I’ve heard say that. However, the rejection of objective truth I find problematic (but I will admit I’m no expert on post modernism). The idea that truth exists, and that the Church can come to identify it, is very attractive and compelling to me.

  13. The more I read his stuff, the more I like him. I first became aware of him when tracking down and listening to your radio shows with him.

    You guys should consider doing an interview with him, maybe on politics. You could discuss Republican Jesus:

  15. Well, the important thing is that we recognize that no truth is merely unfiltered, but it all is interpreted through lenses (ours or others’). Realizing this helps with not being smug assholes and whatnot.

  16. I can definitely get on board with people having different filters they view life through.

    As for not being a smug asshole, we all have our weak spots that we are working on. But, triumphalism is so fun:

  18. I personally hope Rand gets the nod from the GOP.

    However, something I just learned about Cruz is that he is a debate champion. As the debates become smaller, I think Cruz will start pull away. He is very smart, and seems to be pacing himself.

    While at Princeton, he competed for the American Whig-Cliosophic Society’s Debate Panel and won the top speaker award at both the 1992 U.S. National Debating Championship and the 1992 North American Debating Championship.[38] In 1992, he was named U.S. National Speaker of the Year, as well as Team of the Year, with his debate partner, David Panton.[38] Cruz and Panton represented Harvard Law School at the 1995 World Debating Championship, making it to the semi-finals, where they lost to a team from Australia.[39][40][41] Princeton’s debate team later named their annual novice championship after Cruz.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Cruz

  19. Beyond being a debate champ, he’s a former Supreme Court clerk who went on to become one of the most respected practitioners before the Supreme Court. The dude is super, super smart, which makes his politics even more baffling.

  20. You forgot getting stoned while eating pizza with friends and arguing about Elves in list of things D&D led to, which as we were all taught is what the Old Testament meant by magic and witchcraft. So I think Frank Peretti’s disciples were right all along.

    Also, of course YOU would like vodka, ginger ale, and lime COMRADE.

  23. If you read further, the guy was a dick back then as well. Frankly, 90% of the people I know who’ve spent time in Cambridge (whether it’s undergrad, HLS, HBS, or HMS), they tend to be entitled assholes.

  24. The problem with Paul is that he lacks the purity of vision like his father, thinking that he could kiss mainstream republican asses without losing his father’s base. Sadly, not so much.

    But honestly, Rand Paul is just another cookie cutter republican candidate, he just seems spicy because he calls himself a libertarian.

  25. Jason,

    While searching for you blog, I came across some other posts of various people chastising you for your change of beliefs. I know you have talked about this before on the podcast. However, someone publicly calling you out on the internet is a pretty big thing. Why do they care so much?

  26. Yeah, when I “poped” it pissed a lot of people off, and some still haven’t gotten over it. A lot of it has to do with the fact that hardcore Calvinists see the Catholic Church as the synagogue of Satan or something, and the pope as the antichrist. What. Ever.

  29. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did. I really like his solution to fear at the end. Worth the listen

  32. After listening to this week’s podcast, I have seen more of the push back on Target for its gender neutral ideas. I know Christian said something about it being an overreaction to the current trans movement and that we should focus on making sure we accept boys playing with girl toys instead of trying to take gender out of everything. However, I think the point is that when you call a doll a “girl toy” or an action figure a “boy toy”. The phrasing is inherently judgmental. Even if you say it is ok for a boy to play with a girls toy, you are still, by definition, saying it is not “normal” or “right” since he is a boy and that toy is for girls. Why can’t they just be toys? Aren’t gender roles mostly a societal construct anyway?

  33. Is this website accurate, in terms of Bernie Sanders’ positions? http://www.ontheissues.org/Bernie_Sanders.htm

    If so, then I agree with him on *certain aspects* of corporations and crime and war. His record on abortion, however, seems pretty close to the old Revolutonary Communist Party slogan that I used to espouse: “Abortion on Demand and Without Apology.” According to this site, he actually voted *against* outlawing partial-birth abortion. He has a 100% pro-choice voting record, according to the National Abortion Rights Action League. Ironically, the *founder* of NARAL, Dr. Bernard Nathanson, became vocally pro-life (and, later, Catholic)!

  34. I know this site is accurate:

    http://feelthebern.org/

    It says in the Civil Rights > Women’s Rights section “Women’s bodies are theirs, and they deserve access to high-quality reproductive and sexual healthcare. This includes access to contraceptives, and the right to choose a safe abortion.”

  35. Bush was “pro-life,” right? However, abortion rates fell 13% under Obama from what I read. My personal opinion is that if you want to reduce abortions, vote for the candidate that believes in sex education and free contraceptives. It’s a conundrum for Catholics, for sure.

  36. On reducing abortion– in 1968, Pope Paul VI predicted that the increased societal approval of contraception would *also* lead to a greater societal push for legalized abortion. It may seem counterintuitive, but it’s actually logical. Obviously, contraception can fail, and when that happens, abortion is seen the logical solution by many people.

    Now, from what I’ve heard, most people loudly opposed the Pope on this issue in ’68, but time has proven him right. Legalized contraception in America helped to lead to legalized abortion.

    On contraception, both Catholics and Protestants used to be strongly anti-contraception. They were together on that issue, basically, from the time of the Reformation to 1930, when the Anglican Church cautiously approved its use in “grave cases.”

    Of course, I totally get that this is a non-issue for agnostics, or even most Protestants, and many Catholics, for that matter, but I often hear the argument that contraception is a logical solution to abortion, and I just wanted to present another view. Both contraception and abortion are being heavily pushed by Western, heavily moneyed, political/corporate interests across Africa, even though they’re facing resistance from many actual Africans.

  37. Thanks for the information, Christian. Bernie’s language of “safe abortion” is part of the the common leftist vernacular, and I used to accept it too. I was seriously, vocally leftist and “pro-choice.” Now, though, “safe abortion” seems, to me, to be a contradiction in terms– unless one has bought into the dehumanization of fetuses. I like Bernie on a surprising number of issues, but I can’t vote for him. As much as I detest *some* of the positions of many (maybe even most?) Republicans, I just can’t vote for a politician who vigorously advocates for “abortion rights.”

  38. That’s extremely disappointing to me and doesn’t seem logical to me either. Even if I was anti-abortion, I’d take the guy who will kill less people in wars, agrees with me on economic policies, criminal policies, etc., and will probably reduce the number of abortions more than a candidate who is anti-abortion. It seems myopic and whatever the opposite of expedient is to be so myopic in your voting.

  39. Christian,
    Do you still find yourself coming and going with anxiety about death? Whenever you speak about your past anxiety on the podcast I think, yeah that’s pretty much my seasonal experience with it. Though unlike you, I remain compelled toward the son of God. It’s always a weird thing for me, seeming to be the only christian in the room (not this one) who openly admits fearing death. I take comfort though in that I’m usually also the only one in the room who finds the universal redemption of humanity inescapable in the hebrew and christian scriptures. 🙂

  41. Christian, to be clear, it’s not that I *only* disagree with Bernie Sanders on abortion. Yes, that is a major sticking point for me– especially in that he has a 100% positive rating from NARAL– but it’s not our only area of serious disagreement. I think that he makes some important points and takes some good, strong stands in certain areas, but then again, he is *completely inconsistent* in regard to his stands in other areas– such as abortion. If he cares so much about helping the poor, the marginalized, and the voiceless– well, who is more poor, marginalized, voiceless, *and helpless* than the unborn human fetus? Bernie needs to be consistent here– and, I will say, so does much of the Right on the issue of torture. I completely disagree with “enhanced interrogation.” One of the major tenets of Catholic teaching is that it is not ever morally allowable to do evil, even if or when good may come from it. That is why Catholic social teaching opposes both torture (or “enhanced interrogation’) and abortion. No matter what good may come of torture and abortion, they are violations of human life and human dignity, and therefore, they are evil.

    You are disappointed that I won’t vote for things that are, in your view, more “expedient” to achieving some of my desired ends. I know that compromise is part of politics. Sometimes, it has to happen. That’s life. However, for me, voting for a candidate who has a 100% positive rating from NARAL would not simply be a compromise. Personally, for me, that would be *far beyond* compromise. It would be on the level of voting for someone who was 100% “pro-choice” on the issue of slavery. I just can’t do it.

  42. Christian,

    You need to try to view abortion through our eyes before making that assertion. To someone who believes abortion is the murder of a small child what you wrote reads like this….

    “Even if I were anti holocaust, I’d take the guy who will kill less people in wars, agrees with me on economic policies, criminal policies, etc., and will probably reduce the number of Jews in the gas chamber more than someone who just happens to be against the entire enterprise”

    See the difference? That’s how you read to us, and it’s important to realize in dialog. For me and many others, it’s difficult to see past Aushwitz and talk economic theory

  44. I get it, Kenneth. I used to participate in Operation Rescue rallies with my mom when I was a wee one. I get how abortion is viewed. I still believe that not only would you be voting against your own best interests, but you’d be voting against the best interests of the unborn as well. The real question is whether or not abortion has a chance of being made illegal, and is it a president who would do that if it was. I don’t believe abortion is going to be illegal, so which candidate is going to reduce the number of abortions? If abortion is your most important issue, and it’s not going to be made illegal, then how best can you reduce the number of abortions? It’ll be the candidate who believes in taking care of the poor, in paid maternity/paternity leave, in free daycare, sex education, and free contraceptives.

    If you vote for the guy who is anti-abortion but doesn’t believe in the things above, you’re voting for the guy that will unwittingly increase the number of abortions. It just makes no sense to me. Then add to that the wars that candidate will probably start, etc. It’s just short-sighted in my opinion.

  45. I am admitted an one issue voter when it comes to abortion. I’m okay with that. I doubt many looking back on a person living in the 1800’s who was an one issue voter when it came to slavery would fault them much. If anything they might be praised for their resolve and ability to see through the blind spots of their generation. From your perspective today, would you be happy to see an abolitionist living in the 1800’s convinced to vote for/support a candidate that was pro-choice about slavery – even if that candidate’s economic polices might reduce they number of slaves? I hope not. Slavery was an abhorrent practice and had to come to an end!

  46. Well, again, it all hinges on whether or not it’s probable that abortion would be made illegal. I just don’t see that happening. So if I believed as you do, then I would do what I would consider to be the next best thing. The unborn aren’t the only lives that need saving.

  47. I will agree, if you think law change was impossible, then I could see a focus on lesser evils. I’m simply not convinced that law change is impossible. So I don’t think I could ever vote for a pro-choice (or at least a 100% voting record pro-choice) person for president, because they get to nominate Supreme Court Justices.

    And of course the unborn aren’t the only lives that need saving. But if we don’t have the right to life, no other human right is meaningful.

  48. But you do have the right to life, and so do 7.3 billion other people, so other human rights are very important.

    I’m not saying don’t fight for the right to life for the unborn fetuses if you believe them to have it, but don’t ignore everything else as if it doesn’t matter. There are 7.3 billion people who need clean air and water, financial help, and who don’t want drones dropping bombs on them.

  49. I try to be as consistently pro-life as I can, from conception to natural death. But, your sentiment cuts both ways. I don’t think a “liberal” (these shouldn’t be left/right issues) on all those other areas is being consistent either if they aren’t also pro-life when it comes to the unborn, the elderly, and the disabled.

  51. I’m not familiar with “liberals” not wanting to help the elderly and disabled. As far as the unborn go, just as you want me to understand that fetuses under a certain age are “persons,” you have to understand that to most liberals, it’s just tissue that will become a person.

  52. I am loathed to deny any human personhood. Period.

    What I find absurd is liberals who deny personhood to some humans, while at the same time pushing for personhood for nonhumans such as apes, dolphins, and pigs.

  54. I’m not the one begging the question, I’m denying the distinction between human and person. The question being begged is that personhood is required to recognize human rights. I’m against any person who thinks that they can deny human rights to a human if they can just deny them personhood.

  61. Again, you are asserting the idea that not every human should be given human rights. You justify this to yourself by creating a subcategory of humans called “persons”. I reject the entire concept, because it is dangerous. I don’t want a group of people sitting around debating whether or not another group should be labeled non-persons, so that the 1st group can gain some advantage by denying rights to the 2nd group.

    And the fact that you said “a person yet“, betrays the entire shell gain you are trying to play. You KNOW that it is person. YOU are an adult, barring pre-mature death YOU will be elderly, YOU were a teenager, YOU were a child, YOU were baby, and YOU were fetus. Your entire life, YOU were YOU. YOU are a human person, your entire life.

  63. Clearly a fetus will turn into a person at some point. Stating that doesn’t betray anything. If it’s not miscarried, it will be a person. Just like I can look at a sperm and an egg in a petri dish and say that it has all the elements it needs to eventually be a person, it’s not yet.

  65. The sperm and egg aren’t whole organisms, unlike the unborn. The unborn are alive. They take in nutrients and grow via cellular reproduction. They also have human parents and human DNA. No matter how much time and nutrients you give a sperm, an egg, or any other body cell, they will never develop into a mature member of our species.

  70. I gotta applaud you for fighting the good fight man and honestly, I think this is why liberals lose a lot of these anti-choice fights; most of us simply aren’t interested enough in this subject to keep going day after day comment after comment from anti-choice people.

  72. If you don’t provide nutrients and protection to ANY living thing, it dies. Dependence, doesn’t take away from personhood – are infants not persons because they have absolute dependence on others?

    At the very least this probably means that you don’t support any abortions after viability.

  75. Being able to breathe air, drink water, and digest food is different than being completely dependent on someone else doing all of your normal body functions for you, in my opinion.

  77. Surely that’s not a shock to you as I’ve mentioned several times on several threads that I do not consider legal abortions murder as I do not consider that a human or a person.

  79. Well, we know that it is human, that is simply science. The question is whether or not that human is developed enough to have value or rights.

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