Podcast #71: Virtual Friends, Counsellors, and Confessors

80 November 8, 2015 by


71_finalThis episode of Drunk Ex-Pastors opens with a brief discussion of whether Time magazine’s fourth most-powerful person in the world deserves the label, after which we take a call from (and are shocked at the libido of) the world’s most brilliant theoretical physicist. We turn our attention to the irony that is Seattle’s Amazon Books superstore, which is intertwined with the topic of technology, leading us to the not-so-futuristic issue of self-driving cars and whether they’ll be as “safe” as the ones that human idiots drive. We then touch upon Bernie Sanders’s views of marijuana and the gays’ plan to make the human race extinct. After our break we discuss Australian (ex)model Essena O’Neill and her renunciation of social media, on social media, which brings up the broader topic of just how healthy it is that online forums have replaced real flesh-and-blood counselors for so many young people in our culture. In our “Dick Move, God” segment we learn how to get out of paying your debts with the help of the Spirit. Jason is biebered by the effects of changing your email address, while Christian’s bieber involves unnecessary wastes of his time.

Also, Lesbian Island? Yes please.

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80 Comments (click here to leave a comment)

  1. Sad to see how you guys have bought into the whole liberal thing with the whole gay agenda to boot, your podcast is now getting tiresome and boring as you regurgitate the left’s ideologies that the media is replete with, one thing you guys do do is illustrate perfectly the falling away that would take place before His return, but of course you don’t see it, like the man who can’t see the forest because of the trees. To make your podcast interesting, invite guests with opposing views to your liberal musings to stimulate the conversation instead of just you guys just tripping over each other to kiss each other’s derrière and genuflect at the altar of liberalism.

  5. On “fewer” vs “less”. If you can say “There are three [insert thing]” (or similar sentence) without it sounding stupid, you should use the word fewer (because it is countable). “There are 3 car accidents” sounds fine, therefore use “fewer” (“There will be fewer car accidents”). “I have 3 sand” sounds stupid, therefore use “less” (“There is less sand on the beach”). You could say there are few grains of sand. You have less hair, or you have few hair follicles. “Your pine tree has fewer pine needles this year”, or something like “your pine tree has less foliage this year”.

  6. When I first saw this video (as an engineer), I thought what an awesome problem to work on – a completely unnecessary waste of time and effort – but awesome. But when you said their cars will soon park themselves, the effort made more sense.

  8. whole gay agenda

    Gay agenda (as related to me by actual gay people):

    6:05 am: Wake up.
    6:10 am: Shower
    6:35 am: Eat breakfast
    6:40 am: Kiss loved ones goodbye.
    6:45 am: Leave for work
    7:03 am: Curse at traffic
    7:55 am: Arrive at work.
    8:00 am: Drink coffee. Start job.
    12:00 pm: Eat lunch. Hang with coworkers.
    5:00 pm: Leave office.
    5:05 pm: Curse traffic again.
    6:30 pm: Arrive at home. Say hi to loved ones.
    6:45 pm: Eat dinner
    7:15 pm: Watch TV
    8:00 pm: Put kids (if any) to bed.
    10:00 pm: Go to sleep.

  10. My car will parallel park itself and also has adaptive cruise control. It’s a really weird feeling at first when you see the car turning the wheel itself or slowing down and speeding up on its own!

  13. It will be a miracle if either Bernie Sanders or Jeb Bush get the nod. I’m thinking Cruz V Hillary. It’s simply a matter of time before Carson and trump implode, and once they do, their people will be looking for an anti establishment bad ass. Hillary has too much money to fail at this point…. plus she is a really good candidate.

    Bernie won’t be able to implement any of the stuff that makes people the most excited. Is the republican congress and Senate gonna draft up free university? Single payer healthcare? Nope. Even if the house and Senate turn blue, democrats are retards that never vote 2 years later. He would be screwed.

    I live in Houston so let me give you some perspective. Literally every other commercial on tv and the radio told the public this Bill was about putting men in women’s restrooms. It was everywhere. No one got the whole story.

  16. Random thoughts:

    • I gave up alcohol and took up Xanax. No regrets. Just blissfully sleepy.

    • If you want to feel better about your weight, find fatter friends.

    • 180? 160? Wow. So any pops we hear in the background are probably Jason’s capillaries bursting.

    • Speaking of Bueller, I don’t know if you guys watch the show Limitless, but they just did homage to Ferris Bueller’s Day Off. It was pretty cool.

    • The idea of giving up modern convenience and technology is appealing to a degree. Personally, I think we would all be happier if we did simplify our lives. Living within walking distance from work and schools, buying and shopping locally from people we build relationships with, spending time away from screens and media and outside at parks or beaches.

    • One of the things I do worry about sometimes is that knowledge specialization that accompanies our technology driven society where fewer and fewer people are required to know how to do things (grow crops, maintain water supplies, read maps.) If the system ever failed for a prolonged period of time, what would happen to our civilization? Could it survive a solar flare or EMP burst that knocked out our satellites and disrupted our power grid for three months?

    • I wouldn’t be worried about Amazon Books. Amazon has enjoyed a unique competitive advantage in many locations because of outdated tax laws that gave them a break on online sales. Having a brick and mortar store will nullify that advantage. Granted, they still have a tremendous amount of power to purchase in bulk, but so does Wal-Mart and Costco.

    • If we were ever serious about doing something to stop Climate Change, we would mandate that all new buildings constructed in areas that get more than X days per year of sunlight must have solar panels installed that will generate at least 50% of their power needs along with batteries that could store the power to be used at night. Then we would create a program to install solar panels and batteries into existing structures to do the same. Desalinization plants are also starting to look pretty good right now.

    • Self driving cars are all well and good right up to the point where they decide to kill all of the humans.

    • “Oh, yeah. Oooh, ahhh, that’s how it always starts. Then later there’s running and um, screaming.”

    • Assuming the cars don’t kill us and they do put people out of work, there is more and more pressure as robots replace us to have a guaranteed minimum income for everyone.

    • I’m more of the mind of legalizing all drugs and diverting the funds currently used to enforce prohibition into prevention and treatment of addiction. Treat addiction as a health problem. Bring some consistency to drug production in dosage, potency, and ingredients so we reduce accidental overdoses and cut off the drug money currently flowing to gangs and cartels.

    • We should probably also legalize prostitution to help combat human trafficking and further cut off funds from criminal organizations. But that is another story.

    • I’m increasingly becoming more and more socialist. Mostly due to hearing Republicans and their corporate sponsors speak.

    • This country also has a strong strain of Puritanism in it that heavily influences prohibition. Back in the day, it was alcohol and the racist images of drunken Irish immigrants who would get drunk and supposedly beat their wives and children and even murder. Demon rum was a term coined into existence. We see the same impulses with sex. Can’t tell our kids about birth control or they’ll start having sex outside of marriage. Because kids NEVER had sex before condoms or the pill. Can’t get our daughters the HPV vaccine or they’ll turn into sluts.

    • GOHMERT! is the male Michelle Bachman.

    • Yeah, none of us are isolated as a society. We do see homosexuality in nature and it has not been phased out as a trait. Perhaps because gay people can have children. Some marry opposite sex partners while they live in the closet and have children. Others choose to have children either naturally or via IVF. Some people are bisexual. And perhaps there is some attribute of a gay person that expresses itself in a way that the opposite sex finds attractive. That said, it’s stupid to try and set up an isolated community to prove that homosexuals cannot breed with one another. Yes, we know that. So fucking what?

    • How honked up does your theory about the pyramids have to be to make “Aliens built them” seem more plausible?

    • For some reason, listening to you two talk about your date for Star Wars makes me think of this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL4L4Uv5rf0

    • I’m a tossup between thinking the GOP nominee will be either Cruz or Rubio. Rubio is better liked, but Cruz is more of an asshole, which will draw in the Trump crowd once Donald tanks.

    • This model’s video with the cheesy background music sounds like a Christian summer camp video where we’re about to learn that finally found Jesus and invited him to be her personal savior and discovered the meaning of life.

    • I think the problem with turning to social media is that followers or viewers are not friends. It’s an open forum where any anonymous dick can do a drive by trolling, say the most horrid thing imaginable, and then dart off into the night without seemingly any consequence.

    • I blame the Kardashians for popularizing the idea of inane fame.

    • Can we all agree that all of these social ills of looking for meaning online come from the failure to recognize that the internet is for porn?

    • Christian, I feel you on the working from home thing, I, too, long for the day when I never have to leave my house again.

  17. Ha ha! I don’t mind leaving the house. I just want to leave it on my own terms…and I don’t want to use an alarm…unless I have to get up early to go on vacation. 🙂

    Is that Limitless show any good? I loved the movie.

  19. It’s pretty good. Tonally, it’s a bit funnier and lighter than the movie, but then it does sway into some dark territory. And Bradley Cooper’s character shows up in a few of the episodes so far.

  21. Marijuana laws were racist from their very origins. Here are a couple quotes from Harry Anslinger, the first commissioner of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics who was driving force making it illegal:

    “Reefer makes darkies think they’re as good as white men.”

    and

    “This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers and any others.”

  25. But someone has to pick up Trumps 25% of the crazies! And the other 20% of anti establishment Carson supporters…. seems like Cruz is in a good spot IF those two go down.

  26. Agreed. Cruz is a dick like Trump and does a fair job of pandering to the fundies like Carson.

    My only hesitation is that the establishment and the party appear to hate the man deeply, which also works in his favor with the base, but might be problematic in getting support for his campaign.

  27. You mean a heartbeat away.

    BTW along with some wacky historical beliefs he is crazy distinguished. Take a minute and read through this from Wikipedia:

    Carson is a member of the American Academy of Achievement,[177] Alpha Omega Alpha Honor Medical Society,[178] and the Horatio Alger Association of Distinguished Americans.[179] Carson has been awarded 38 honorary doctorate degrees and dozens of national merit citations.[180] Detroit Public Schools opened the Dr. Benjamin Carson High School of Science and Medicine[181] for students interested in pursuing healthcare careers. The school is partnering with Detroit Receiving Hospital and Michigan State University.[182]

    In 2000, he received the Award for Greatest Public Service Benefiting the Disadvantaged, an award given out annually by Jefferson Awards.[183]
    In 2001, he was elected by the Library of Congress on the occasion of its 200th anniversary to be one of the 89 who earned the designation Library of Congress Living Legend.[184]
    In 2004, he was appointed to serve on The President’s Council on Bioethics.[185]
    In 2005, Carson was awarded the William E. Simon Prize for Philanthropic Leadership.[186]
    In 2006, he received the Spingarn Medal from the NAACP, their highest honor for outstanding achievement.[187]
    In 2008, the White House awarded Carson the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the nation’s highest civilian honor.[188]
    In 2008, Ford’s Theatre Society awarded Carson the Ford’s Theatre Lincoln Medal, for exemplifying the qualities embodied by President Abraham Lincoln—including courage, integrity, tolerance, equality, and creative expression—through superior achievements.[189][190]
    In 2008, U.S. News & World Report named Carson as one of “America’s Best Leaders”.[191]
    In 2010, he was elected into the National Academy of Sciences Institute of Medicine, considered one of the highest honors in the fields of health and medicine.[192]
    In 2012, Carson was the Influential Marylander Award recipient from The Daily Record, Baltimore’s legal and business newspaper.[193]
    In 2014, a poll of Americans conducted by Gallup ranked Carson sixth on a list of the most admired men in the world.[194]
    He is an emeritus fellow of the Yale Corporation.[195

  32. One of the voicemails mentioned that you guys need to make DXP tee shirts. I think taking the text of this picture literally would make an amazing DXP shirt.

    https://i.imgur.com/FGOgV9y.jpg

    Two T-Rexes fighting in front of a table saw (nativity scene)

  33. You nailed it. He is actually funded quite well, but he needs one of two things to happen:

    1. Carson and Trump quickly crash and exit the race leaving him to pick up the pieces (not likely, but MORE likely now that the debates will only feature fewer players)

    2. Quickly emerge as option number three and watch everyone else jump on board.

    My money is on option two. This guy shreds debates and he is gonna start looking really polished. But if neither happens this infallible simulation Christian posted just might be correct

  34. Haha! I think that Hollywood and new York hate him, but you might be surprised how much America disagrees with those two cities. See the recent votes on LGBT legislation as evidence

  35. 58.2% of registered voters turned out last presidential election. Of those, 47.2% broke for the Republican candidate. Which would work out to 27.47% of eligible voters, or about 61 million people who disagree with the Democratic party. About 66 million supported the Democratic party.

    And that leaves about 107 million eligible citizens who couldn’t be bothered to give a damn about either party.

  37. Is Ray Donavan worth the time investment? I’m like 5 episodes into season one and it’s kind of dragging….

  38. Quite possibly because neither party has anything to offer them. Possibly because they haven’t been informed of the process and they’re too busy trying to make ends meet than they are studying the issues and trying to arrange time off from work to go vote.

    We should make voting registration automatic (unless you opt out) with selective service registration with everyone being registered as non-partisan unless they choose a political party.

    And we should make Election Day a paid national holiday.

    Hell, I’d really like it if we could limit campaigning by law to the four weeks before an election and publicly finance campaigns instead of dealing with the corruption of independent donations.

  41. Total agreement all across the board. Also, why the hell does it matter where I vote?!? Are we seriously using tech so old and abysmal that they can’t keep track unless I drive out to a specific location and wait in line for hours upon hours? Get it together. Also, don’t people realize local elections are the ones that most effect our daily life? The president MIGHT do three or four things that affect the entire nation per term. But usually it will be legislative or judicial. Meanwhile, everything from school curriculum to paved roads is up for grabs every two years….. and no one gives a shit. Madness

  42. Washington state just sends us ballots in the mail. Takes 5 minutes to vote and put them in the mailbox. I think we have a pretty high voter turnout. Not sure why that is not implemented in more states.

  46. Jason Stellman,

    You can’t tell the difference between a bourbon and a highland scotch….. pulling your man card on that one! Shoot me an email or call me tomorrow and we can get started on a new endeavour!

  47. Ok so I just finished the podcast! A couple thoughts….

    1. This was a good podcast but I think the overall entertainment value has gone down now that Jason no longer defends any aspect of conservative Christian belief. We used to hear “well Calvinists would say this… charismatic would respond by claiming this…. the Catholic answer is such and such….”. But lately it’s just the two of you bashing conservatives and fundamentalists, while making fun of scripture, and unsurprisingly taking a liberal perspective on just about every topic. Jason doesn’t even bother reconciling the scriptures he “pokes fun at” after “Dick move God” has concluded. This isn’t a complaint about the content. You are both entitled to whatever views you happen to have, but it’s not as entertaining as it used to be. At least, not for me.

    2. I can’t wait to leave the most obnoxious voicemail ever ever ever once the republican nominee crushes either hilary or old man sanders.

    3. Just because Sampson had poor motives does not mean that God shared them. “What you meant for evil I meant for good” applies here. God’s judgment had already fallen on the nation and He is free to punish them using whatever means He likes regardless the motives of those whom He uses.

    4. Social media is affecting humans in weird ways. My wife is routinely dismayed by pictures or posts that don’t get enough “likes”. She knows that makes her a loser (I remind her just in case) but can’t seem to help herself. I think this anxiety stems from the nature of social media. Everyone posts with their best foot forward, subconsciously communicating lies. The best pictures, the best links, the funniest videos or memes, etc. When they don’t get noticed despite their best efforts they feel insecure. Just like we would feel insecure if we really tried our best to be liked at a social event or family gathering and didn’t get a single compliment. Interesting to see how it all plays out 30 years from now.

  48. 1. I’m thinking about becoming a fundamentalist again.

    2. Glad you’ll never have the chance to. I expect a very confused voice mail to be left by you next November. 😉

    3. Whatever! You should be a guest on the show. We’d have plenty of conflict!

    4. I can’t imagine being your wife. Ha ha. 😉

  49. Christian,

    I’m thinking about becoming a fundamentalist again.

    Yes! But if your gonna pull a Trump (pretend to be something your not for ratings) we need to get you some hair. Red or blonde? You choose!

    glad you’ll never have the chance to. I expect a very confused voice mail to be left by you next November.

    If that happens I will literally shave my head bald and post a picture.

    Whatever! You should be a guest on the show. We’d have plenty of conflict!

    You would just end up developing a man crush on me and sheepishly agreeing with anything I said. It wouldn’t be good for the DXP image. That or I would just end up making you look really bad in the discussion and I don’t want to hurt your self confidence. Remember the whole “enforced servitude” thing? Remember how embarrassed of yourself you were when I completely dismantled your position? It would be like that only a billion times worse…… LOL

    I can’t imagine being your wife. Ha ha. 😉

    I know, I really feel bad for her sometimes…. poor thing. Had no idea what she was getting herself into

  51. 1. This was a good podcast but I think the overall entertainment value has gone down now that Jason no longer defends any aspect of conservative Christian belief. We used to hear “well Calvinists would say this… charismatic would respond by claiming this…. the Catholic answer is such and such….”. But lately it’s just the two of you bashing conservatives and fundamentalists, while making fun of scripture, and unsurprisingly taking a liberal perspective on just about every topic. Jason doesn’t even bother reconciling the scriptures he “pokes fun at” after “Dick move God” has concluded. This isn’t a complaint about the content. You are both entitled to whatever views you happen to have, but it’s not as entertaining as it used to be. At least, not for me.

    Yes, I agree with this. A lot. I was trying to put my finger on this recently, but Kenneth nails it. This sort of dialogue he described (“well Calvinists would say this… charismatic would respond by claiming this…. the Catholic answer is such and such….”) was what originally sucked me in. I now stick around because I’ve gotten to a point where I really like you both. However, if I (being theologically conservative and/or Catholic) were a new listener I’m not sure if I would give you guys a second listen based upon where the podcast is currently. I’m sure you guys will do just fine with your current trajectory, you just might not attract very many from my demographic. Which you may be okay with.

  52. If the show permanently turns into “drunk expastors ridiculing religion, conservatives, and fundamentalists, while promoting liberal politics” I won’t tune in much longer. Although, I will still root for them both to be successful and take over the world one shot glass at a time.

    And of course I’ll still check the disqus boards periodically 🙂

  54. Every life taken, no matter how tragic or common place, is taken by or allowed to be taken by God. If the end of the story stopped with this life, then questions about justice might make sense. However, the story doesn’t end with this life.

  55. So what if this life is not the end? That actually makes it worse. Samson is a hero of faith and his God enabled murder spree leads to him getting a place in the Hebrews 11 hall of faith, while his victims get to burn in hell forever, mate.

    And the fact that there are occupied child cancer wards and NICUs would seem to heavily argue against there being such a thing as the gift of healing.

  56. You have no idea what the ultimate fate of his victims was.

    Instead of being mad at God and demanding answers out of pride, trust that God: loves you, is good, and just. With that known, maybe we should go visit those children, help their families, and maybe have our souls healed in the process.

  59. Even if the story was over in this life, or even if the next life contains only hell, God has no obligation to us. He has no moral duties. It is only WE who are obligated to Him. If we fail in our duties and or purpose God is perfectly just in ending our existence in whatever way He sees fit. You put mankind on a pedestal we don’t belong on

  60. Then he’s not a very good God or a very good Father.

    You don’t get to create life and abandon it, starve it, beat it, or chain it up in a basement and torture it.

    That’s why we hold parents responsible for the well-being of their children. They created them. They have a responsibility and obligation to raise and protect their children until their children are capable of protecting themselves and surviving on their own.

  61. Again, you are confusing the created with their Creator. YOU don’t get to decide what God can or cannot do with His own creation. You can kick your little feet and throw a temper tantrum. You can shake your first at the sky and think yourself wiser. But you don’t dictate the terms

  62. I’m not dictating or throwing a temper tantrum. I’m simply saying that if God is good, then he has an obligation by that goodness to do right by his children, the same way you and I both have an obligation to do what is right by our children. His obligation stems from His goodness. If He is not obligated towards us, then he is not good.

  63. Obligation indicates that one OWES something to another. God does not owe anything to anyone.

    One of the things He doesn’t owe us is an explanation of His actions. Goodness is not an attribute the God happens to posses. He IS goodness. Whatever we experience as “good” is only analogous to God’s very existence. From this we may conclude that God has “good” reasons for whatever he permits, but we must not conclude that we are owed certain treatment. This is why “faith” is so important. Unlike Adam and Eve whom (,like you) didn’t trust God’s Word or goodness, we are called to believe those things that He has revealed to us. We trust Him even when we can’t see how it makes sense.

    Thanks

  64. I hope you know you sound like every freaking calvinist I’ve ever had to talk to. Next you can explain why it’s actually okay for God to predestine 90% of the world to hell just to show off how wrathfull he is.

  65. I don’t know what percentage of people will be in heaven and whom will be in hell. But I do have faith that God has good reasons for allowing whatever he predestines

  66. And we’re back to your answer for hell. Well, it doesn’t matter if God orders something particularly horrific that we would absolutely condemn as horrible, unjust, immoral, evil, and wicked if it were done by any tyrant on Earth, because if God orders it, that horrible, evil, and wicked act must really be okay and good.

    Yeah… okay then.

    And Christians accuse non-Christians of being moral relativists.

  67. You didn’t actually respond to anything that I wrote. You just carried on with the temper tantrum and appealed to emotion again. One trick pony. Zzzzzzzz

  69. It’s not an ad hom it was just pointing out that you dodged my entire comment and just rehashed another graphic appeal to emotion. Which is as far as you are ever willing to take these convos.

    Your thought process is

    1. X seems wrong

    2. So I don’t trust either God’s Word or Gods goodness

    3. My understanding isn’t the problem. I’ll have to jettison God’s Word or His goodness

    My thought process is

    1. X seems wrong

    2. But I trust both Gods Word and His goodness

    3. Therefore there must be something missing in my understanding.

    If God did it, it WASNT a moral wrong. Even if it would be morally wrong for us to do in normal circumstances

  70. I don’t think that any one is saying they don’t believe in God’s goodness. I deffinately believe that God is good, even though my beliefs on who or what he/she/it is and how he operates are vague and loosely defined at best. It is actually because of this belief that I am unable to accept that he did all of the horrible shit that the Jewish scriptures say he either did or comanded others to do.

  71. Ding ding ding ding ding… We have a winner.

    To Kenneth:

    No, my thought process is:

    1. God is good.

    2. X is evil

    3. God would never command me to do X, nor would he do it himself.

    4. If God does supposedly command someone to do X or supposedly does it himself, this command or action is not from God, but mostly likely a misinterpretation, an impersonation, an allegory, or a personal bias.

    Your thought process is:

    1. God is good.

    2. X is evil

    3. God would never command me to do X, nor would he do it himself.

    4. If God does supposedly command someone to do X or supposedly does it himself, then it can’t be evil and must be good.

  73. I addressed this briefly in last night’s show. Regarding Samson, our options are:

    1. Samson didn’t actually tear a lion limb from limb and then murder 30 men with his bare hands;

    2. He did, but it wasn’t God who empowered him to do it; or

    3. He did, by God’s power.

    If God is good and anything like Jesus (which I would echo Heb. 1:3 and say he is), then the truth lies somewhere around options 1 or 2.

    And for the record, this need not involve disrespecting Scripture in any way.

  75. Chris,

    my thought process is:

    1. God is good.

    2. X is evil

    3. God would never command me to do X, nor would he do it himself.

    4. If God does supposedly command someone to do X or supposedly does it himself, this command or action is not from God, but mostly likely a misinterpretation, an impersonation, an allegory, or a personal bias.

    Exactly. Which is the exact formula needed to mold God to fit your own personal preferences, desires, and cultural norms. The only difference between you and Kenneth Copeland is that his own personal preference of a good God is one that makes everyone rich. You elevate your own desires and philosophy over scripture and then unsurprisingly discover a Christianity that reflects 21st century sensibilities. I don’t want my religion to morph into whatever the culture at the time demands. I want something authentic and less contrived.

    Your thought process is:

    1. God is good.

    2. X is evil

    3. God would never command me to do X, nor would he do it himself.

    4. If God does supposedly command someone to do X or supposedly does it himself, then it can’t be evil and must be good.

    This is not an accurate reflection of my thoughts because I deny points 2 and 3. I might say that they SEEM wrong. Or that the goodness of God’s motives are far from self evident. But why should God’s motives be easy to discern? I am perfectly comfortable trusting Gods Word and His goodness despite how things might seem to me. I am perfectly willing to have my will confirm to His Word rather than mold scripture into my own image.
    And, btw, there are reconciliations of the text that don’t involve jettisoning trust in God’s word.

    If I cannot trust the capacity for reason that God gave me, then how exactly can I never know if anything I perceive about God is true?

    If you aren’t infallible how can you ever trust your own mind? Please. You don’t get to be infallible either way. The only thing you have accomplished by doubting the scriptures is cast away your only sure anchor in understanding your Creator.

  76. I thought the subject of the discussion was whether God can command another to kill and still be moral?

  77. Jason,

    Please explain why option 3 is not reflective of a good and loving God.

    It seems to me that you would need to show

    1. Every time God allows something he does so with the same motives as His creation (see you meant it for evil but I meant it for good)

    2. The men Samson killed were blameless in Gods eyes and did not deserve death.

    3. God could not have had morally sufficient reasons for empowering Samson to do what he did.

    Good luck with that 🙂

  78. I just don’t see sufficient enough evidence that the bible is all his word. The fact that a group of church fathers, who lived 300 years after Jesus, said that every word in a collection of books was spoken by God, just isn’t enough to convince anymore. That said, the bible is still incredibly important to me and the teachings of Jesus and Paul heve done more to influence my understanding of the world than anything else.

  79. Oh, let’s not mince words. You would say the same of any branch of Protestant thought because the basis emphasizes a reason based interpretation of scripture over Catholic traditional interpretation. Your problem is with the Reformation and it’s ‘prideful’ denial of Catholic authority.

    Personal bias infects all of us. It’s possible I could have a secret desire for a perfectly good God that abides by the same morals He imposes upon His creation and am biased towards interpretation of the scriptures. It’s possible you are letting your own personal biases infect your understanding of the same. I gain my understanding of God from what I’ve read in the bible. Yet I wrestle with the scriptures because of issues like this to try an arrive at a more complete understanding of God.

    And what sort of personal biases affected the writings of the men who wrote the scriptures, put together the bible, and tried to understand the person of Jehovah or the living Christ in the context of their world? Could a nationalist Jewish writer in the 2nd to 10th century BC have a more tribal view of God that saw their enemies as irredeemable and implacable thugs that must be destroyed? Perhaps.

    This is not an accurate reflection of my thoughts because I deny points 2 and 3. I might say that they SEEM wrong. Or that the goodness of God’s motives are far from self evident.

    Which is, more or less, saying that evil is subjective as concerned to God. God says do not do X, then supposedly orders other people to do X or does it Himself.

    Is God subject to the same morality He imposes upon us or is He above His own moral laws?

    I suppose the idea of an amoral omnipotent God who is capable of doing literally anything and inflicting endless pain without any restraint upon His actions who viewed me as His cosmic plaything does terrify me a bit. How would one ever know they were safe? Even if you did everything such a deity demanded of you, he could capriciously decide to send you off to eternal pain anyway. (Which the Calvinist would no doubt nod and say Amen to.)

    Discovering that Jehovah was such a deity would be as equally terrifying to me as discovering that Cthulhu actually existed and there was no escape.

  80. Chris,

    Oh, let’s not mince words. You would say the same of any branch of Protestant thought because the basis emphasizes a reason based interpretation of scripture over Catholic traditional interpretation. Your problem is with the Reformation and it’s ‘prideful’ denial of Catholic authority.

    Actually that’s not true. In fact, I respect many different denominations for allowing scripture to speak and following the evidence to the best of their ability. I have full confidence that the Reformed genuinely think their teachings are in line with scripture. But you know that your interpretation isn’t. You know that you don’t trust God’s Word. You admit as much. Massive difference.

    Personal bias infects all of us. It’s possible I could have a secret desire for a perfectly good God that abides by the same morals He imposes upon His creation and am biased towards interpretation of the scriptures. It’s possible you are letting your own personal biases infect your understanding of the same. I gain my understanding of God from what I’ve read in the bible. Yet I wrestle with the scriptures because of issues like this to try an arrive at a more complete understanding of God.

    This is liberal salad dressing on an apostate word salad. “Oh yeah, I totally get my understanding from scripture! First I just had to denigrate, ridicule, and ignore roughly 3/4 of the data about God. After that, I disregard most of what’s historically taught about Christianity, inject 21st century modern-day sensibilities, arbitrarily elevate whatever I agree with to “divine”, sprinkle my own opinion over whatever the text says, annnnd WALLA! Perfect scriptural harmony”

    Brilliant.

    Which is, more or less, saying that evil is subjective as concerned to God. God says do not do X, then supposedly orders other people to do X or does it Himself.
    Is God subject to the same morality He imposes upon us or is He above His own moral laws?

    God is obviously not “bound” by a morality that is aimed at guiding the actions of one creatures actions towards other creature. Obviously God is not bound by morality that addresses the obligations of the created to their Creator. Why? Because His relationship to us is vastly different than your relationship to another human. Why is it ok to chop up and fry fish but not other humans? Because there is something DIFFERENT about fish that makes fine to kill them, but not other humans. Same with God. To the point: killing is wrong for US precisely because we aren’t God. We don’t decide when people should die. We don’t have that authority. However, God DOES decide who will die and when. God DOES judge the righteous and the wicked. We only exist on His visa. He can revoke it whenever He likes because we never did anything to earn it in the first place. Again, you have confused the creature for their Creator. An ancient and terrible error as old as our first parents.

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