In this episode of Drunk Ex-Pastors, we explore whether Hillary actually does have a better shot of beating Trump than Bernie did (could a self-proclaimed socialist with *that* hairstyle really ever be a U.S. President?). We then take a listener’s call about whether, if Universalism is true, religion has any point. Christian then defends his position on guns to a caller who thinks it’s just ridiculous, after which we discuss whether there should be a statute of limitations of crimes like, I don’t know, murdering 8 million Jews. Our “Dick Move, God” segment is finally back, in which we meet a man who should have known better than to instinctively try to stop something valuable from being damaged (a mistake he’ll never make again, mainly because he got killed for making it the first time). Christian is biebered by restaurant communism, while Jason’s bieber has to do with how not to catch a serial killer.
Also, who would have thought that Germany would be criticized for not punishing people enough?
Chris Fisher
• Substituting whiskey for wine would make communion much more lively.
• And there are apparently kosher whiskeys out there according to Google. I shouldn’t be surprised, but Sláinte and L’chaim to you guys out there drinking it.
• Do you know there’s an official Scottish tartan for Scotish Jews? That’s pretty cool.
• Ah, but you don’t understand. THEY got to Bernie. It’s just like THEM. He’s compromised now. We have to carry on the revolution and save him by helping Trump get elected because there is no difference between Trump and Hillary… except on campaign finance reform and immigration and healthcare and reproductive rights and gay rights and minority rights and education… but other than those things… NO DIFFERENCE!
• Hillary was up 12 points over Trump in the latest poll, by the way.
• Vote for Trump or the AntiChrist… Can I think about it for a moment?
• Something else I didn’t know about Hillary Clinton? She actually appears to be a sincere Christian. A Methodist who taught Sunday School, held bible studies when her husband was president, and reportedly relied on her faith to help her forgive and reconcile with her husband. Not that that means anything electoral wise, but it’s a side of her that I never knew about, because she was always painted as the evil anti-Christian harpy.
• But she’s still totally going to FEMA camp us. Any day now.
• Another point I’ve made a lot, if you want a more progressive Democratic party, get involved. Volunteer to man phone banks, go to party meetings and caucuses, support local progressive politicians. Run for office yourself. Build a farm team that the national party will draw from when it looks for national candidates.
• Brexit. I feel most sorry for the premillennial dispensationalists who will have to find a new boogeyman to be the one-world government now that the EU is falling apart.
• Why don’t Muslims integrate into Europe? I suspect it’s the history. In Europe, I think race and ethnicity plays a lot more into cultural identity, so newcomers to the culture feel more ostracized and congregate together. While we’re a nation of immigrants and while we treat them like shit for a generation or two, eventually, they stop being Italians or Irish and become Americans.
• Muslims do have peaceful branches that basically want everyone to chill the fuck out. They are currently being slaughtered and enslaved by ISIS… which is generally what happens to people who call on fundamentalist assholes to stop being fundamentalist assholes.
• Personally, I think we’ve picked the wrong dog when we decided to ally with the Sunnis in Saudi Arabia. They are funding radical Islam and terrorism and taking actions that cause radical Islamic militias and terror groups to thrive. We should probably be backing the Shia more strongly. They are often almost as horrible, but sometimes they do chill the fuck out, and if I had to live in a Middle Eastern country, Iran seems a bit more Westernized than Saudi Arabia does.
• Episode 103, in which Jason embraces Marcionism and confirms that the OT and NT Gods are different.
• I kid, I kid, I know you were joking.
• I am a universalist and I believe that we will still be rewarded and punished for our actions in this life. Every man repaid according to his deeds. Salvation is in Christ, but our actions still have an effect. Personally, I think we will feel every pain we have caused others through our actions, words, or inactions, but regardless of its form, I think the justice we experience will be punishment for the sake of restoration and reconciliation, and I think for some people, that process will feel very much like eternity.
• Stalin and Hitler would not get along.
• The value is to try and enact some form of human justice upon a grave crime against humanity.
• The sentence he would have gotten from Nuremberg would be death by hanging or life in prison, which he effectively got if he has a five year sentence.
• Penance… Protestants don’t believe in that shit. We just tell God we’re really, really sorry and bingo… we’re awesome again! Woo!
• I guess I’m having a bit of trouble with how one gets ‘caught up’ with “Hey, you know those Jews? They caused all our problems, we should steal their shit, throw them in a forced labor camp, and systematically kill them” and not have a moment of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY
• I think if we were exploring alternate punishments, I would want him to record his story. Record his story, and let him describe the horrors of Nazism in action. 75 years have passed since WWII, and I think we’re in danger of seeing fascism and the Holocaust become forgotten cultural memories.
• Sweet fucking Christmas. Machine guns are illegal. Do we see any mass murderers using machine guns lately? No. No, we do not. A national law restricting the capacity for ammunition would have an effect on the ability of most people to find and use larger clips. Could a criminal find an illicit source? Yes, but that brings risks of detection by the authorities and arrest while he is in the planning stage of his crime.
• Let’s also not forget that the illegal arms market in this country is partly fueled by straw buyers who purchase guns legitimately from shady gun stores.
• Or just fuck it, let’s ban everything but six shooters. You can all have a six-shooter revolver and a cavalry sword. That should let you all stem the hordes of zombies when they come.
• Ask the Taliban how well AR-15s worked against drones, attack helicopters, and F-16s.
• “Close your eyes, Marion! If we can’t see the omnipotent, omniscient God, then God can’t see us!”
• That moment must have been confusing for Indy, because he already saw that Shiva was real when those rocks he picked up in India got all glowy and sent Mola Ram to his death. Now he’s got confirmation that the Jewish God Yahweh exists. So are all the stories of gods true?
• Hey, Disney owns both Lucasfilm and Marvel, right? How about an Indiana Jones/Thor team up?
• I get the annoyance of not being able to express your feelings via a tip, but as far as incentive goes, I think someone should be professional in their job regardless of whether or not they get a direct financial incentive.
• Personally, I think waiters should be salaried and people can leave tips if they want to.
• Also my Bieber is that your choice of images (girl holding her boobs, younger looking girl wearing a burlap sack, guy in Nazi uniform) is really making it difficult for me to access the site during my lunch hour at work. lol
Kenneth Winsmann
1. I think what these people mean by “British” the cultural aspect. I don’t know what that entails for their country, but it has less to do with race and more to do with loving the queen, drinking tea, or whatever. When you say “American” people mean liberty, capitalism, baseball, and hot dogs. I don’t see that there is anything wrong with cherishing and preserving culture. The East proclaims “modernization yes westernization no”. Its a little silly to read that and say
“oh, but what does it really mean to be western? Does that mean no white people? If I’m in China doesn’t that make whatever I’m doing defacto eastern?”
Nations are inevitably going to be “about” something. Our constitutions and declarations will enshrine certain values etc. Don’t get caught up with ethnicity. It has very little to do with anything.
Islam needs to learn how to play nice with modernity pretty quick. Because the west is getting annoyed. Not just the politicians, but everyone. And that’s not a good place to be in. Just ask the Japanese Americans that lived through WW2!
2. Why does everyone say “Dick Bush out” when they are not Dick Bush? Lol
3. Universalism. A couple of honest questions. If God is love and is a better father than any earthly father… Why are we in this giant fucked up world filled with poisonous snakes, insects, disease, hardship, and carnivores? Why does he allow Nazis to guard Jew killing facilities and only get 5 years in jail? I know what the answer to this question is in orthodox Christianity. But that answer doesn’t seem to apply to Hippy God. How does a universalist answer this question? If we applied the same line of reasoning we would say
“If God is love and is a better father than any earthly father… He wouldn’t put us in this broken planet filled with sorrow. He wouldnt give us free will just like I wouldn’t give my 4 year old a butcher knife. If a parent gives a gift KNOWING the kid is going to cause immense harm the parent is culpable. God fails the loving Hippy Dad challenge right off the bat. How do you deal with this?
Chris Fisher
Your question stands regardless of whether an eternal hell exists or not. How can a loving God allow sex trafficking, rape, slavery, disease, death, etc.? Adding hell just adds another level to the question. Why would an omniscient, just, omnibenevolent deity allow evil to exist and then allow eternal torture to exist where a sentient creature will be in pain and misery every moment forever?
Why would an omniscient and benevolent deity stay silent as Adam and Eve were about to make the most catastrophic decision of their lives, a decision they could scarce understand the consequences of? Why wouldn’t he appear and try to dissuade them from their decision?
The atheist would say because there is no god. We, as Christians, are forced to try to piece together the motives and reasoning that would allow such things to exist.
Kenneth Winsmann
Right, I understand that everyone has to answer the question. But I don’t know what the universalist answer would be. My answer to suffering sounds like this….
An omnibenevolent God might allow pain and suffering in this life if He knew it worked for a greater good. Perhaps a world with pain and suffering like we experience produces the maximum number of souls in heaven. Maybe without such suffering more would have chosen their own sin and eternal isolation from God.
But notice that hippie Dad God can’t be defended in this way. There is no possibility of eternal separation from this God. So whats the point in placing us in this deadly garden in the first place? Would YOU put your child in a garden filled with poisoned water holes, man eating beasts, malaria, and killer insects? If not, are you a better Father than God?
Lol you guys took with your left what you gave with your right.
Lane
I agree with Kenneth below, what’s wrong with wanting to maintain a cultural heritage? What if a million Texans moved to Seattle, would you be thrilled as they brought their culture with them (Dallas Cowboy fans everywhere, would clearly be the worst), or would you like them to assimilate into the laid back pacific north hippie?
Lane
As to sketch artists, it isn’t just you describing a person in a vacuum, there is also the well trained professional sketch artist there. They will coax the image out of your mind. They also know what typical features and face shapes look like, so you don’t have to be precise. And there is a feedback loop, you describe a little, they draw, you critique, back and forth. Obviously some are better than others, and some witnesses remember more than others.
Kenneth Winsmann
They would welcome the cowboy hats, conservative social and religious values, and blue stars with open arms!!!!! They totally wouldn’t mind when minimum wages went down, marijuana legalization vanished, and coffee shops get replaced by whataburger. They would just embrace the change and be excited to lose their own culture for a new one!
…… Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight 😉
Houston had to deal with this to some extent with Hurricane Katrina. We inherited every hood rat in New Orleans. My family housed four people (and all of their dogs) for like 2 weeks. Most everyone was happy to help at first…. until they realized these people weren’t going back home lol
Lane
I will pay devil’s advocate, since I’m not a universalist. I know that God’s mercy is vast and His will is that all should be saved, however I don’t have enough evidence that it is actually the case to make it an article of Faith. Even if ultimately all get saved, there is enough talk about Hell that the teaching itself may play a necessary part in God’s plan, and that is enough to not completely undermine it.
Regardless, Jason did say that just because a universalist thinks everyone will ultimately be redeemed, that there won’t be consequences. Lack of eternal consequences, doesn’t mean lack of temporal ones. This seems pretty straight forward within Catholic theology. We believe that to make it to heaven we must be perfected, that all attachments to sins must be purged, and replaced with virtue. Sin isn’t just bad because it will be punished, but that it is harmful to who we are as a person; it must be healed from. We must replace our damaging vices with Virtue; the habitual and firm disposition to do the good. It takes much Grace and effort to replace vice with virtue.
That healing sanctification process begins on Earth in this life. Unlike Protestants, Catholics believe that it is actually necessary and not simply a nice idea. It is so necessary that it must be completed in the next life before entering heaven.
Why couldn’t a universalist believe that all the suffering in this life is needed to begin the redemption process; this life being the first stage of purgatory. If everyone is going to be saved, everyone must start the process somewhere. Maybe some don’t start until later, and it is much more grueling for them.
Maybe Hitler needs several thousand years of suffering under the incredible guilt of his actions doing great works of penance to finally overcome the guilt and shame of the evil done to finally be able look back to God and love Him.
I would think that would be reason enough to reign in your actions and start developing virtue now. The work has to be done, but the longer you put it off the harder and longer it will take. And you will basically be in hell until you start. So hell could potentially be eternal, depending how stubborn a person is.
I particularly like the way CS Lewis depicts heaven and purgatory/hell in his book The Great Divorce.
Chris Fisher
Well, I wouldn’t allow my kids to be in a garden, unguarded, in the middle of a war zone where my enemy could enter (with my consent) and corrupt them and cause all of the misery and suffering in the first place. If my kids ran towards the street to retrieve a ball as a box truck barreled towards them at 80 mph, I wouldn’t sit back and let them learn the lesson that they should listen to me about looking both ways before they enter the street. 🙂
So I don’t find your answer to the problem of evil anymore comforting than you would find mine simply because I do not have one. Not really. I could parrot any one of the theories that I’ve been taught: free will, higher purpose, etc. But ultimately, there is no satisfactory answer that doesn’t require faith.
And faith is easy to talk about academically when you are fat, happy, and comfortable. Harder to grasp when you’re sitting in ashes scratching your boils with a broken piece of pottery as you bury your sons and daughters.
Job cries out for an advocate who could help plead his woes to God. Job screams out “Why?!” to the heavens, and God doesn’t answer. Instead He tells Job, “You don’t understand what it’s like to be me.”
But perhaps the universal cry of mankind affects Him. He decides that He will come to understand what it is like to be human. So He becomes one. Born into poverty. A working class life. Knowing sweat. Knowing fatigue. Knowing sickness. Knowing hunger. And He comes face to face with human loss. A woman mourning her son. He restores him to her. A man mourning his child. He raises her from the dead. A beloved friend. His sisters’ cries of pain, “Why? Why didn’t you stop this?” And He cries. He understands viscerally what human pain and suffering is.
And then He takes it upon Himself. All of it. The cruelties we inflict on each other. The pain. The loss. The suffering. The loneliness and isolation. The existential crisis of mortality. And He, like Job, cries out “Why?!” to the heavens. He understands. And He takes all of the evil on Himself. Not necessarily in some blood guilty way, but in a way that says, “It’s okay. I get it. I take responsibility for it all. Blame me. Let it go and be reconciled to each other and to me.”
And he leaves a different message with us. You don’t have to be trapped in a cycle of despair, death, and loss. You can rise above it all with me. You can bring the kingdom of God here through love. And one day, I will set it all right and everything will be reconciled.
Anyway, there is no answer for the question of evil. But at least the cross allows us to know that God has felt our loss and taken the evil upon himself.
Or who knows? Maybe He isn’t there. Maybe there is no benevolent father out there. Maybe our struggles are just the product of an uncaring universe and we will all be forgotten as it winds its way to the inevitable end.
But I’d like to hope that there is a happily ever after for us out there.
Chris Fisher
Hmm… would I rather have radical Muslims or Cowboys fans move into town?
Could I get back to you on that?
Lane
Haha right?
Lane
@boywonder23k:disqus I’m almost done with Best Served Cold! It took me like a month to read first book of The First Law trilogy, then about a week for each of the following books after I got totally sucked in! Soooo good. Thanks again for the recommendation!
JasonStellman
I actually tackle these issues in the last couple chapters of my book. Short answer would be that God doesn’t “do control” the way we often think of him doing it, as though he signs off on this kid getting cancer of that tsunami wiping out a village. Shit happens, and God is not in the business of interfering with natural law or human free will.
Kenneth Winsmann
Jason,
But natural law can surely be whatever God created natural law to be. So God made a garden, packed it full of dangers and illness, engineered a natural law that would enable (and even demand for carnivores) pain and suffering…… But that’s OK because He doesn’t “do control”? He knows the beginning from the end and surely realized how things would go if He gave us free will and these natural laws.
Would you accept that response from a Father who gave a 6 year old a rifle to play with?
Chris Fisher
I think if you guys ever make any more swag, your official bible verse should be Proverbs 31:6-7.
“Let beer be for those who are perishing,
wine for those who are in anguish!
Let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.”
Lane
Jason said that God “murdered” Uzzah. God doesn’t murder, He executes.
My favorite line about that story is from RC Sproul:
“Uzzah believed that mud would desecrate the ark, but mud is just dirt and water obeying God. Mud is not evil. God’s law was not meant to keep the ark pure from the earth, but from the dirty touch of a human hand. Uzzah presumed his hands were cleaner than the dirt.”
Chris Fisher
Eh, Uzzah was just a sentient being made in the image of God who was trying to do right, the box was far more important than he was.
Chris Fisher
Actually, I’ve changed my mind. They should have younger Indiana Jones team up with Agent Peggy Carter to track down a Norse relic.
Lane
Like Jason has said, you never want to find yourself in a theological lesson for future generations.
On a side note, the Ark was an OT typological shadow that finds its fulfillment in the NT as the Blessed Mother Ever Virgin Mary. For example, the Ark contained stone tablets that the 10 commandments were written (Word of God), Aaron’s staff (representing Prophets), and the jar of manna (bread of life come down from heaven); and the Ark represented God’s presence with His people. All the things contained in the Ark represent Jesus, who was contained in the Virgin Mary. The Ark was meticulously created without flaw or blemish, so was the Virgin Mary – pointing to the teaching of her Immaculate Conception. Uzzah being executed for touching the Ark, points to the teaching of Mary being Ever Virgin. Looking at Rev 11:19 – 12:2, the Ark is found in heaven which is connected to the woman in Rev 12, points to Mary’s Assumption.
Biblical typology is my favorite branch of theology. The OT is awash in types and antitypes that prefigure all sorts of stuff in the NT.
Lane
But wouldn’t the rifle serve a good purpose for the father to have around the house, to help put food on the table? The 6 year old could also burn themselves on a stove, but the stove is properly used to cook food.
Maybe creation is filled with all sorts of things that given the right knowledge allow for all sorts of wondrous goods. Maybe viruses exist so that we can use them to adjust DNA in the future. Maybe every dangerous seemly unnecessary thing/evil in Creation is a by product of an aspect of Creation that can be harnessed for a future good purpose?
Chris Fisher
Today’s word is… Apophenia. 🙂
JasonStellman
But the fact is that the ark was just a box and it didn’t matter whether it got dirty. Right? I mean, is God that susceptible to things and that touchy?
Kenneth Winsmann
The Rain Forrest is no doubt filled with potentially useful things that if harnessed might serve some benefit. But I wouldn’t abandon my kids in the middle of south america. That’s not what a good father would do. And if God is better than any earthly father… Oh wait. Another fail. Lol
If God fails this teddy bear logic from the start there is no reason to apply it to our afterlife. This is what I mean when I say universalists haven’t been careful in discerning what God is and who we are in relation to Him. He is our Father and we BECOME children of God, brothers of Christ, and heirs through baptism. But that’s not the only anthropomorphic language given to us is it? Clay to a Potter. Slave to a Master. Filthy rags to a thrice Holy God. The One who makes war and delivers justice to His enemies. The God whose ways are higher than ours.
Universalists keep on using the word “God”. But I don’t think that word means what they think it does 😉
Christian Kingery
There are things that my kids go through that I may even put them through that they think are awful, but it’s for their own good. They won’t be able to see it many times until they’re adults. If heaven is real and everyone ends up there, I think an argument can be made that although this temporal, fleeting life (which is like a vapor) may have been horrendous for many, at least eternal life is on the other side. After a few trillion years in eternity, whatever you went through in this life is going to seem as insignificant as discipline or correction when you were a child seems once you are an adult. Perhaps it’s just an example to us of what eternity would be like if it weren’t for God redeeming us.
Kenneth Winsmann
Christian Kingery for the win! This is the correct answer to pain and suffering. But the point of allowing your kids to suffer is so they can learn some valuable lesson for the future. There has to be some plausible end in sight to explain all the nightmares. If your eternal soul is on the line and suffering is Gods megaphone i can see how this might be excused…… but if universalism is true what could that possibly be?
187k children under four years old die every week. Many of their parents will be praying to God for help. Their prayers will not be answered. But those are just cold statistics that dont really do this justice. I dare you to watch this and not cry like a baby.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI5FM-hdPKc
If this is to save ourselves from making a decision that would doom us for eternity i can live with it. If the outcome doesnt matter and its just a demo of what life without God is like…….. pretty sure an omnipotent diety could have found a better way to show us around. I know I could have. And if God is a better father than any earthly father……
Christian Kingery
It’s funny though, because I see it as the exact opposite of you. What’s the point of teaching your children a lesson if you’re just going to throw them in an eternal torture chamber later on…most of them? I can see human suffering being more explainable if everything and everyone are redeemed in the end than if most of the people who suffered here just end up suffering for all eternity. Universalism makes way more sense in that case.
Kenneth Winsmann
Christian God gave us free will knowing what we would do with it. Knowing that we would be miserable. Knowing that our babies would die and that life for most people would be short and shitty. An omnibenevolent God, who had literally unlimited options in creating any possible world has some splaining to do.
Would you abandon your kids in the middle of the Sahara to show them what life is like without you? Dont you think there are better ways to teach a lesson? YEAH, DUH!! But if they only got ONE SHOT at being happy forever might you allow some extreme measures?
Teddy Bear God doesnt exist bro. Go visit a children hospital and prove this to yourself. He is not there. There might be some other conception of God that exists. But the Hippie Dad version fails right from the start
Kenneth Winsmann
Also, we BECOME children of God. It is not a default setting. I know you know that but its worth saying
Lane
Typology is still rad!
Lane
We are susceptible, and we (all of humanity) are the ones being taught by these interactions. And yes, God is clearlying that touchy, thus Uzzah’s death.
Lane
And no it clearly is NOT just any old box.
Kenneth Winsmann
BTW did you finish the trilogy?
Lane
Check out Christian with the theodicy! =)
Lane
(See my other comment above) I loved the way the trilogy ended! It made me question what I thought about all the characters and story lines. I just started Heroes yesterday.
Christian Kingery
I think you’re missing my point.
Kenneth Winsmann
Is your point that universalism fits better with the evidence of pain and suffering than non universalism?
Here is the rub: the reasoning used to get to universalism in the first place is the “God is a better father than any earthly father” thing. Jason didn’t get universalism from scripture or the Church (because no one does). He got it from musing on Hippie Dad God. But Hippie Dad God wouldn’t have cursed his entire family with death because one son disobeyed Him one single time. Hippie God also wouldn’t have left us in a crappy world with so much pain and suffering. He wouldn’t have given us free will knowing ahead of time that we would make a muck of it. He certainly wouldn’t need a sacrifice to forgive us. I wouldn’t need a sacrifice to forgive my son…. And if God is a better father than any earthly father….
Kenneth Winsmann
But God is a better father than any earthly father and so that’s impossible. Once you accept that you can jettison 2k years if church teaching and completely reinterpret or ignore the vast majority of the bible however much you like. Apparently, this is the key to happiness 🙂
Kenneth Winsmann
Such a bad ass author. When it ends your like “hey wait wasnt he a good guy?!?” Lol
Nine fingers and glokta steal the show. My favorite part of every book is when the bloody nine comes around. Which I’m sure says something about my character
Lane
Glokta grew to be my favorite. I also really liked West, oh well.
Kenneth Winsmann
Haha have you read the name of the wind yet? I’ve got so many good recommendations man. I’ll keep you tied up for months
Lane
Right? Reading the standalones I can’t decide who I should cheering for… the Prophet maybe?
Lane
I downloaded the sample for that on someone’s recommendation, probably yours. Keep them coming!
To my delight, I found out I have access to the Navy’s online library as a DoD employee. I can borrow all these books for free on my Kindle! Too bad I didn’t figure that out before I bought $50 worth of Joe Abercrombie.
Kenneth Winsmann
OK well the name of the wind has to come next for sure. Its a Joy but you will have to wait for book 3 which isn’t out yet.
The night angel trilogy by Brent Weeks is sheer entertainment. Completely awesome.
The lies of lock lamora is a fantasy version of oceans 11 that is fun
And also “Birds of Prey” by Wilbwr Smith. Historical Fiction here. One of my favorite books of all time.
Lane
Thanks! If you like science fiction, you should check out Old Man’s War by John Scalzi, I really enjoyed the series especially the first book. And also Forever War by joe Haldeman, it was thought provoking.
Chris Fisher
Current evidence suggests that a great deal of the OT ‘history’ is mythic and did not happen as described.
I would reckon that the priest that wrote down this portion of the national myth wanted to emphasize the need for separation between God and the common rabble and the need for a priest.
Chris Fisher
I know. Geeking out about stuff like that is fun as long as you don’t take it that seriously.
I mean, having sat through fundie sermons for quite some time, I can list some typology that would go against Catholic stuff. We tend to read into our fandoms from our own current point of view.
Lane
This where is Big T Tradition comes in. I don’t accept typology, or any teaching really, unless it is pointed to by Church Fathers, Saints, and taught consistently for 2000 years. If a new teaching contradicts centuries of Church teachIngram, I reject it. We aren’t the only ones who are taught my the Holy Spirit, we also have nearly 20 centuries of other people taught as well.
Kenneth Winsmann
Maybe so. But what dies that entail?
Chris Fisher
Of course, then you run into the problem that perhaps the tradition is also bunk and Christ might say to us, “You have heard that it was said, but I say to you…” 🙂
Lane
New covenant differs from the old because Holy Spirit. I’m not so worry about what Christ might say, but very much with what he did said.
Chris Fisher
Perhaps that our views of the bible need to be reinterpreted based on what we know of how the bible came to be now rather than when we assumed it was the literal word of God.
Chris Fisher
Of course, the reformers would also claim to have the Holy Spirit on their side.
Lane
Them breaking from a 1000 years of Tradition proves them wrong. Not to mention the continued splintering and drifting apart in doctrine between Protestant branches over the last few centuries.
Chris Fisher
Just like the Christians that broke off from 1,000 years of Jewish tradition were proved wrong? Okay. 😉
Kenneth Winsmann
I usually judge interpretive keys on three criteria. One of them I got from Jason Stellman.
1. Plausibility- Its important that this interpretive key be at least plausible and not just possible.
2. Explanatory scope- How much does this interpretive key actually explain? How much does it unravel?
3. The worldview test (this from Jason)- If the author had the kind of worldview that this interpretive key would demand, would he have penned these words. So for example, would RC Sproul ever pen the book of James? Definitely not.
Your recommended interpretive key is to reinterpret scripture based on modern biblical scholarship and liberal hermenuetics. Ill rate this interpretive key on a scale of 1-10 on all three criteria.
1- plausibility – Ill rate it as a 5. I think its plausible that these stories are mythic and not literal.
2- explanatory scope – Ill rate as a 3. You get off the hook with explaining dick move god….. but then the rest of what you have becomes almost incomprehensible. Do we still take lessons from the muddy box? Or is that just an extra? Should we learn something from the book of Job? What exactly? How do you know? This key unravels more than it solves
3. The World View Test – Did the authors of these books think they were writing myths? Hard to know for sure. Jews loathed Pagan mythic stories so its hard to imagine that they would be eager to borrow from the genre. But at the same time the literature and stories fit so closely with other myths of the time. The world view test isnt really helpful here. BUT, it can be applied to Hippie Dad God. If the author of Genesis, Exodus, etc. shared the view of teddy bear God that you and Jason share would he have written these words? These stories? With these illustrations? I dont think so. So then does it really matter if these are myths or literal stories? You dont get off the hook either way. Unless you just want to muddy the waters enough to willfully ignore the parts you dont like.
JasonStellman
What if (just spitballin’ up in here) God allows his children to tell their own story? This would explain why the OT accounts are often so similar to the contemporary myths of the time. But when Christ came, he “set the record straight” as it were. “You have heard X, but I am here to tell you Y.” Thus the OT must be evaluated by the Jesus Test. Would Jesus have murdered 30 random people in order to pay off a silly bet that he straight-up lost by taking the bloody clothes of his victims and giving it to the winners of the bet? No, he would not. Therefore whatever happened in that story about Samson, it wasn’t as simple as the Bible makes it appear (“the Spirit of the Lord came upon Samson,” etc.).
Just a thought.
Lane
When Moses set down the law, he was accompanied by many public miracles. When Jesus set down the new covenant, He was accompanied by many public miracles. If Luther wants to break with tradition, he needs to prove he has the authority.
Kenneth Winsmann
Are they telling this story while inspired by God? Or completely on their own? If inspired wouldn’t that make every line, every word, every illustration meaningful? You still should be able to take *something* from these stories. Especially when they involve God acting in the world. Otherwise, Abraham (or whomever wrote these stories) is guilty of libel.
JasonStellman
Fathers don’t look at their children as “libelous,” even when they brag about them on playgrounds.
Kenneth Winsmann
Not even when they brag on your murder, genocide, and xenophobia? Aren’t YOU at least acusing Abraham of libel?
JasonStellman
Well, Jesus did pop in and clear things up a bit!
Kenneth Winsmann
Do you think Jesus cleared up Gods obligation to mankind or mankind’s obligation to God and neighbor? Most of the dick move Gods involve how God behaves towards us…. I don’t see that Jesus clarified that much with all the “I bring a sword, I cast the branches into a fire, narrow is the way” talk. And that’s not even counting bitching sword out of mouth Jesus in revelation.
See how poor the explanitory scope ends up being? Pop in the RC works + faith key and you get a massive reconciliation of scripture. Pop in God let’s us tell a story so some parts are garbage and you still have soooooo much explaining to do.
Lane
But Kings and Judges might. Careful not to focus so much on one theological point that you lose sight of others.
Kenneth Winsmann
Lane you aren’t paying attention. God is a better father than any earthly father. Earthly father’s don’t think of themselves as Kings of their children. They are not masters and their kids are not slaves. The clay is what matters not the potter. You need to stop reading so much of your bible and focus more on Bill Maher and Bernie Sanders. Would Bernie approve of King Potter Master Jesus? No? Then adjust theology accordingly
Rachel
The argument I’ve heard about tipping is that the amount people tip doesn’t correlate much at all with the quality of the service. It has way more to do with gender, race, attractiveness, stuff like that. Add to that that restaurant employees (especially chefs, who go to expensive culinary schools and then make far less than the servers) are notoriously underpaid. So some restaurant owners are switching to this model. Of course they could just up the prices to provide adequate pay, but then the early adopters would be at a disadvantage among their competitors. So it seems that this is the compromise for the time being. A “service” charge that benefits the back of the house staff equally, makes up for our discriminatory tipping practices, and also highlights the low wage issue.
Nathan Londrie
“God killed me ’cause I touched the ark.”
*sips deeply*