Podcast #33: Cults, Shrinking Christianity, and Emotional Atheism

52 March 8, 2015 by

33_aIn this episode of Drunk Ex-Pastors one of your hosts, due to an impromptu get-together that was completely outside his control, may have prefunked just a tad more than usual (but he holds it together quite well, really, despite imbibing something like five drinks beforehand). We consider ten characteristics of a cult and seek to determine whether our old megachurch, Calvary Chapel, fits the bill, and then launch into a discussion of whether Christianity is shrinking and why. Jason answers one listener’s question about crazy preaching stories with a tale involving the New York Yankees and the Albanian mob, and Christian agrees with another caller’s comparison of theism to belief in the Tooth Fairy who, apparently, isn’t real either. This prompts a debate about whether God can be rejected for existential reasons rather than purely intellectual ones, thus emboldening Christian, DXP’s resident agnostic, to seek to encourage Jason by citing every Bible verse and religious platitude he still remembers. We then revisit the issue of alcohol as a stumbling block, concluding that there’s a limit to the amount of drinking we won’t do. Jason is biebered by the audio-visual pitfalls of video-recorded rock shows, while Christian’s bieber involves toilet paper and a lack of patience.

Also, either Christian is incredibly demanding, or Jason is overly sensitive to unnecessary correction, or both. But either way, we really do bicker like an old married couple. It’s adorable.

52 Comments (click here to leave a comment)

  2. Didn’t you deal with this in an earlier broadcast?

    I guess I should just consider myself lucky (or not depending on your view); I think if I had not ended up in Elsinore, I would have never set foot in a Calvary again. When I moved to MO, I found another place where it was not what you say is the norm. This guy actually has me on the leader board, and I am no yes man (which he knew about and encourages). We have had talks that if Calvary (organization) did “x”, we would be looking to change name and continue in the direction we have been going.
    Honestly, I think much of that is that the pastor, John Duncan was on the outside of the “regular guys”, and this one is outside of CA.
    In regards to CCCM, and Chuck, I was kind of out back in ’95-6 when everything went down at Murrieta, and I saw what happened to people and how both of them treated people. This could be said to be my “moment like you guys had, however I ran into John and so I found out that not all CC guys were like that.

    I started drinking when I was 14, quit at 16 and struggled until just before 21, and then was completely sober (wanted to make sure I wouldn’t relapse) until I was 36. At one point I just wanted to have a drink, and I carefully tested the waters. I can now have some responsibly and not get drunk, but enjoy what is happening.

    What a crazy easy and smart design.

  4. Occult is not the same as Satanism. Satanism is a religion, it’s based on reversing all the rules of Catholicism and incorporates cult of personality. It uses The Bible as one of its main texts.

    Occultism is any search for what is hidden. It largely takes the form of divination such as scrying, tarot, I Ching, runestones, hypnotism, et cetera.

  6. Judging from their actual activities I’ve read about in the news, I think many Satanists are less actually committed to the dark lord and more likely atheists who simply enjoy trolling evangelical Christianists.

  7. The Internet is going to shrink christianity? I was suprise to see Jason agree with you on that one. The Internet allows people to watch William Lane Craig routinely destroy high profile atheists and agnostics multiple times a year. It let’s us see how morally bankrupt Islam can be on a global scale. Internet ministries are flourishing all over the place. Christian universities are developing entire degree plans aimed at reaching people through various media outlets. So long as Christianity is competitive in the market place of ideas, and it is, the Internet can only be good news.

    On a side note, have you ever seen that documentary “a day without a mexican”? It shows what woukd happen to the US economy of all illegal mexican immigrants were zapped off the globe for a day. I would like to see a sequel titled “a day without a christian”. You guys take all our work for granted. It would be nice to see these agnostics and atheists (who statistically contribute next to nothing charitably speaking) grapple with all the world’s orphanages, hospitals, food halls, schools, shelters, missions, etc vanishing in a blink.

    Be careful what you wish for….

  8. So Christianity is growing faster than it is shrinking? Is that what you’re saying? Do you have any statistics for this? It’s pretty easy to find articles about Christianity shrinking. (And by well-respected Christians too: https://www.preachitteachit.org/articles-blogs/piti-blog/post/archive/2012/june/article/five-reasons-why-christianity-is-declining-in-the-us/)

    As far as debates go, I’ve rarely seen or heard of a debate where the attendee didn’t think that their guy destroyed the other guy.

  9. Kenneth,

    The Internet is going to shrink christianity? I was suprise to see Jason agree with you on that one.

    Speaking for myself, my point was that as the culture moves in its direction it is becoming more and more difficult for (Catholic) Christianity to be a viable option for young people (think birth control, masturbation, marriage/divorce, etc.). I for one am a firm amill guy, meaning I have no delusions about the Church conquering the world!

    Plus, I am perfectly fine with non-triumphalism.

  12. Chriatian,

    PS

    many atheists admit that william lane craig wins most of his debates. With only a few arguable exceptions.

    Jason,

    But none of those issues have anything to do with the internet. Young people won’t like being told what to do no matter how they hear it lol when you say “the Internet will shrink christianity” it sounds like your saying these poor people just don’t have any information and so have been duped. I don’t think that’s true.

  13. Christian,

    I don’t think the internet has anything to do with it. I think it’s more likely that people are merely less interested in countries with low mortality rates. The longer we live, the more comfortable we feel putting God on the shelf. Most agnostics and atheists are horribly informed on the God debate. It’s not that christians are losing the conversation, it’s that people just don’t care to have the conversation to begin with. They are simply apathetic.

  16. It is education and information availability and I’d guess economic development.

    And I would disagree with you and say that most Christians are ignorant regarding their own faith and the arguments for and against the existence of God or the evidence for and against Christianity.

    I would blame the pastors for that. Most of them labor under the conviction that what they believe is absolutely true, so they feel very little reason to try and find and explain the reasons for that belief system and hermeneutic to their congregations much less present competing points of view. If they presented competing points of view, their flock might be led astray by Satan after all and end up a mainline Protestant or Catholic or worse, a liberal.

  17. The number of Americans who define themselves as Christians has dropped from 86% in 1990 to 76% in 2008. (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7041036&page=1#.Txdeo_lXk3w). The number of Americans who claim “no religion” has jumped drastically between 1990-2008. (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0075.pdf). Only 18.7% of Christians attend church. If decline continues at the current pace, the percentage of Christians attending church in 2050 will be about half. (http://www.theamericanchurch.org/facts/27.htm). Etc. Europe is considered “post-Christian” and America is considered to be headed in that direction as well. Again, I’m not saying Christianity is going to disappear.

    You attribute this to longevity. I attribute it to spread of knowledge via the internet. We’d probably both have a difficult time proving either one of those things. I know that in my own experience and in the experience of others that I have known, the internet has played a large role in people leaving Christianity. I’m not saying it’s the sole cause. I definitely believe it to be a factor though. Personally, I’m not sure I would have ever escaped Christianity without the internet.

  18. Christian,

    So in your opinion if we gave every single family in Afghanistan a computer with Internet access the nation would turn agnostic? If only Hamas had Google they would stop blowing up Israel! Haha I think there just has to be more to it. Access to information does not always entail diversity of opinion and it certainly doesn’t entail agnosticism. But I would be willing to concede that it can play a role in developing culture.

    Most professors will tell you that they would prefer their students not do research online due to the boat loads of horrible information. The Internet has, in a way, made people more stupid.

    Personally, I’m not sure I would have ever escaped Christianity without the internet.

    You “escaped” christianity-a view that has a chance at being either true or false- and adopted the paradigm of “maybe, maybe not”. Your new position has no chance of being true whatsoever. In that sense, the Internet does not seem to have been very much help to you.

  19. A good analogy:

    Bob is taking a multiple choice exam on a scantron. He had penciled in “C”, but changes his mind after using the internet. Bob is thankful that the Internet “rescued him” from guessing C. He is now happy to turn in his test without answering the question at all.

  20. I actually do think that if the internet were as available in strict Muslim countries as it is elsewhere, there would be less Muslim extremists. I also think you can use the internet to enhance your stupidity or to learn new things, much like television. It depends how you approach it.

    My new paradigm is that Christianity (along with most, if not all, other religions) is not true. How does that not have a chance of being true?

  21. So in your opinion if we gave every single family in Afghanistan a computer with Internet access the nation would turn agnostic?

    If they lived in a free society and culture that wouldn’t punish them for doing so, I suspect you would find increasing secularization over the ensuing decades.

    If only Hamas had Google they would stop blowing up Israel! Haha I think there just has to be more to it.

    Hamas is more akin to the IRA in that its goals are less about religion and more about political aims. So, no, I very much doubt that Hamas will ever give up violence without the hope of achieving some of their political aims.

  22. Christian,

    I actually do think that if the internet were as available in strict Muslim countries as it is elsewhere, there would be less Muslim extremists. I also think you can use the internet to enhance your stupidity or to learn new things, much like television. It depends how you approach it.

    But what if the community still actively persecuted you for espousing ideals that violate orthodox islam? It wouldn’t matter if the average Joe had unlimited access to Kindle or Google. No one would even be interested in reading material from kaphir (non muslim) swine. Ideas can shape culture, but introducing new ideas does not entail that everyone will jump on board. Most people in the middle east understand democracy perfectly well. they don’t want it. They know how we view human rights and dignity, and they think it’s repulsive . I think we both agree that there is more in play than just information delivery. Maybe we just disagree on the significance of said information delivery mechanism.

    My new paradigm is that Christianity (along with most, if not all, other religions) is not true. How does that not have a chance of being true?

    No fair! You are changing your position. Jason asked you that very question a few podcasts back “is it a no on Christ but a “maybe” on everything else. You responded “it’s more like a maybe on everything” or “probably not” on everything.

    Even with this new stance, you still aren’t able to tell us what reality is, how it works, why we should care, if we are significant, if we have souls, if there is a Creator, how morality works, etc. You specialize in being skeptical of the answers on the multiple choice portion but then also fail when it comes to fill in the blank. It’s easy to play the skeptic. Anyone can do it. Better to form an opinion and then let the cards fall where they may. Pascals wager and all.

  23. Comrade,

    If they lived in a free society and culture that wouldn’t punish them for doing so, I suspect you would find increasing secularization over the ensuing decades.

    This is just another way of saying that info delivery isn’t everything.

    Hamas is more akin to the IRA in that its goals are less about religion and more about political aims. So, no, I very much doubt that Hamas will ever give up violence without the hope of achieving some of their political aims.

    Hamas is an arm of the Muslim brotherhood. Their political goals are to subjugate the world to Allah. It has everything to do with religion. The FBI has seized many of their emails and have evidence of “stealth jihads” funded by Hamas and the Muslim brotherhood that span the globe

  25. Kenneth, I haven’t changed my position at all (although I don’t believe it’s wrong for someone to change their position). The only reason I say it’s a “probably not” on stuff I don’t believe in is because I’ve been wrong before. I’ve held enough positions dogmatically in my life (positions I no longer believe) to know that I should be a little more humble about it. I don’t believe Christianity to be true. Could I be wrong? Sure! I’ve been wrong before.

    As far as your statement that it’s “better to form an opinion and then let the cards fall where they may,” I just couldn’t disagree more. A lot of shitty religions and horrible consequences have arisen from people forming opinions that weren’t true. Perhaps it’s difficult to comprehend, Kenneth, but I’m fine with not having a firm grasp on what’s next. Just because I don’t believe Christianity doesn’t mean I believe there’s nothing after this life, and just because I don’t know with absolute certainty what is next or what that is doesn’t take away the potential for my position to be true. I’m certainly not going to pick something that makes no sense to me just so that I can have an opinion.

    Pascal’s Wager is ridiculous in my opinion. It lacks logic and understanding when you get down to it. If Christianity were the only religion and you could be a Christian simply by going through the motions, then it might make sense. Outside of that paradigm, it’s silly.

  26. Christian,

    Kenneth, I haven’t changed my position at all (although I don’t believe it’s wrong for someone to change their position). The only reason I say it’s a “probably not” on stuff I don’t believe in is because I’ve been wrong before. I’ve held enough positions dogmatically in my life (positions I no longer believe) to know that I should be a little more humble about it. I don’t believe Christianity to be true. Could I be wrong? Sure! I’ve been wrong before.

    OK so your current position is that Christianity is (tentatively) false. Fair enough. This still leaves all of the biggest questions about life unanswered though. The scantron is still blank.

    As far as your statement that it’s “better to form an opinion and then let the cards fall where they may,” I just couldn’t disagree more. A lot of shitty religions and horrible consequences have arisen from people forming opinions that weren’t true.

    That’s true, but at least these religions had a possibility of being true. Also, you should recall that it is the claim of most religions that there are very horrible consequences of unbelief too. It’s not like unbelief leaves you without consequence. Non belief has consequences not just in the next world, but also in this present moment. Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were not only “nonbelievers” but they governed in accordance with their nonbelief and the consequences were horrible. Much more horrible than anything religion has wrought.

    Perhaps it’s difficult to comprehend, Kenneth, but I’m fine with not having a firm grasp on what’s next. Just because I don’t believe Christianity doesn’t mean I believe there’s nothing after this life, and just because I don’t know with absolute certainty what is next or what that is doesn’t take away the potential for my position to be true. I’m certainly not going to pick something that makes no sense to me just so that I can have an opinion.

    Unfortunately, our finite lives make this position untenable. We don’t get to all say “maybe” to God. The rivers of time make it so that your “maybe” becomes a defacto “no”. If Romeo proposes to Juliet every day, and every day Juliet says “maybe tomorrow” at some point Romeo will die and Juliets response becomes a no. Your ship is out to sea, the weather is bad, and it’s difficult to see what port leads home and which ends in disaster. The agnostic says “I’ll just anchor out here in the water until I see things more clearly”. The only problem is that all of our ships are sinking! Sure, you might *hope* that your sinking ship isn’t all there is, and that once it sinks you will somehow just wind up on a friendly shore, but what if that isn’t the case? If all of our sinking ships wind up on shore anyways, the people aiming at a port are no worse off than you are. But what if *we have to find the correct port* before the ship goes down? This is the essence of pascals wager. Better to just make a guess and shoot for shore than to anchor a sinking ship in the middle of nowhere.

    Pascal’s Wager is ridiculous in my opinion. It lacks logic and understanding when you get down to it. If Christianity were the only religion and you could be a Christian simply by going through the motions, then it might make sense. Outside of that paradigm, it’s silly.

    Even with many different religions pascals wager still appeals to your will to survive and find true happiness. You can foster belief. A thousand questions don’t add up to a single doubt. You don’t need to have every question answered 100 percent. Just pick a course that seems the most reasonable and work out the rest along the way 🙂

  27. This still leaves all of the biggest questions about life unanswered though.

    I assume you’re referring to the meaning of life, the universe, and everything. The answer is 42.

    This is the essence of pascals wager. Better to just make a guess and shoot for shore than to anchor a sinking ship in the middle of nowhere.

    Ok, I will probably become a Buddhist then. I like those guys.

  28. I’d rather just be honest that I haven’t come across and don’t have a viable answer, and that perhaps we’re just not meant to have one in this life, than to pick one that doesn’t make sense. If there is a god who is going to punish me for not “believing” him, he should make things more clear. (Go ahead, tell me how clear they are.)

  29. Christian,

    You would make a good Buddhist. Your general attitude towards the afterlife and relativism fits in pretty well with their system.

    I don’t think everything is crystal clear. I just think it’s clear enough to make a reasonable choice. Christianity might not be.an absolute slam dunk, but it’s definitely reasonable. It’s also responsible for most of the moral truths we all hold dear. Inalienable rights aren’t so inalienable without the whole “God given” portion.

    Change of topic, you said you used to sing songs to your imaginary friend named God. You were also ready to be persecuted for this imaginary friend and talked to him all the time. If Christianity is false, wouldn’t it be safe to assume that you are literally bat shit crazy. That kind of behavior goes far beyond “being duped”. Have you sought medical attention from a psychologist? If I ever became agnostic/atheist, I would have to consider it. I would also lose quite a bit of faith in the sanity of my fellow man. Most of whom are still having daily conversations and singing to imaginary friends. Your thoughts?

  30. Ha! Interesting question. Of course, “crazy” people think their behavior is perfectly normal based on what they believe to be happening to and around them. The problem is when people become a danger to themselves or others because of their beliefs. A kid who looks outside his window on Christian Eve for Santa Claus isn’t crazy and in need of a psychologist. It’s considered “acceptable” as are most religions including Christianity. I think there are definitely crazy elements to Christianity, but usually it all falls within the realm of acceptable behavior that is not “dangerous” to most people. Definitely an interesting discussion topic.

  31. If I told you that I could say some words in Latin and transform your waffles into the body of Elvis Presley you would recommend me to an insane asylum. Yet, from your perspective, Jason believes essentially the same thing. He really and sincerely believes that Jesus is present in the bread and wine at mass. The ramifications of your paradigm are really horrifying if you think about it lol

  33. The ramifications of your paradigm are really horrifying if you think about it

    How so? People can believe whatever they want. If Jason believes that it enhances his life to believe in transubstantiation and it doesn’t make him a danger to himself or others, why should I care? You can’t seriously expect me to go around policing everyone making sure they all believe the same thing as me or else I label them as crazy. That’s not my paradigm at all.

  34. Yeah, but if Jason is wrong there is something seriously malfunctioning mentally. I don’t see any reason to dumb it down just because so many people apparently suffer from the same condition. Everyday I leave work I pass this same homeless person. Everyday, he is having a conversation with an invisible man. Sometimes he is having a heated argument with an invisible man. I roll up my window everytime because it’s freaky and the man is obviously deranged. I’m saying if you are right and Jason’s wrong….. there is no difference between that hobo and 2 billion christians. That’s scary.

  35. How would that view be unique to my view? Why wouldn’t your view be the exact same? What about the 5 billion people who don’t believe in your god? Are they insane because they are behaving irrationally since god exists in your view and they’re not asking him for forgiveness and they are pretending like he doesn’t exist? Reverse your analogy. What if someone actually IS talking to that hobo and he never responds. Would that be any less crazy? What about those who believe in a different god, say Allah? Do you believe there is no difference between a billion Muslims and that hobo? That argument is silly. Just because someone believes something differently than me and acts on it doesn’t make them crazy.

  36. I think that this is actually a great argument for the existence of God.

    Premise 1: Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.

    Premise 2: But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.

    Conclusion: Therefore there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.

    When we hunger for food there is food. When we all want sex there is sex. We want family/community and there it is.

    Everyone has a natural desire for something “other”. Heaven, Nirvana, hades, God, Allah, whatever. This kind of thing wells up in humans naturally across all cultures and times. I think that’s a pretty good reason to think that God exists. Otherwise, we would all be suffering as a species from some kind of brain defect where we all crave something that doesn’t exist. Think about it…

  37. There are a lot of great arguments for the existence of god. It’s when you start trying to say that your god is that one god that problems surface. Other than that, I sincerely hope he/she/it does exist!

  39. Christian,

    How would that view be unique to my view? Why wouldn’t your view be the exact same? What about the 5 billion people who don’t believe in your god? Are they insane because they are behaving irrationally since god exists in your view and they’re not asking him for forgiveness and they are pretending like he doesn’t exist?

    Because as I said, we all (the majority of humanity throughout all time) believe that there is something “other”. We all know there is a man behind the curtain. We just have different ideas on who that guy is and what he is like. Plus, on the christian view there is more than just one spiritual power in the universe. So for me to witness other people exercising spirituality that differs from my own (muslims for example) does not entail that these people are crazy. They could be entertaining demons or else just misinterpreting God’s call. The point is that we all feel the call, but we differ on what it means and who may be sending it.

    However, on your view, we are all the hobo screaming on the side of the road. It’s like living in the twilight zone lol plus even more alarming that you were actually one of those hobos and now supposedly you are all better without any medication.

    Reverse your analogy. What if someone actually IS talking to that hobo and henever responds. Would that be any less crazy?

    No it wouldn’t be. I think atheists who sincerely claim to have never felt God’s presence have something broken inside of them. Just like I would think if all 8 billion people felt the suns heat everyday and some bizaar group out there didn’t think it existed.

  40. I don’t know. There were a lot of times I wanted sex and it wasn’t to be found!

    Lol!

    There are a lot of great arguments for the existence of god. It’s when you start trying to say that your god is that one god that problems surface. Other than that, I sincerely hope he/she/it does exist!

    Really? I feel like it’s all down hill from there. If you think God exists you have to also admit the possibility of the miraculous…. cue the evidence of Christ’s ressurection…..

  44. It’s pretty interesting hearing about your experiences in Africa and otherwise on the mission field.

    Peace to you both. Thanks for the show. I really appreciate it.

  46. Hey Kenneth,

    “Everyone has a natural desire for something “other”. Heaven, Nirvana, hades, God, Allah, whatever. This kind of thing wells up in humans naturally across all cultures and times. I think that’s a pretty good reason to think that God exists. Otherwise, we would all be suffering as a species from some kind of brain defect where we all crave something that doesn’t exist. Think about it…” The ole “god-shaped hole” mantra. Please consider the following quote:

    “It’s not so much that we’ve got a God-shaped hole inside, it’s more that we’ve got a hole-shaped God. We made him to suit our own wishes, so of course he fits them like a hand in a glove, or rather a glove over hand. We’ve been duped about which one made the other.”

    Great quote from a guy who became an atheist after many years as a fundamentalist in the deep south: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie Go knock yourself out over there, plenty of kindling to fuel your spiritual fire.

  47. Mike,

    That is an interesting perspective, but it does not answer the challenge from desire. The argument is questioning Why we would have such a desire to begin with if there is no corresponding reality to fulfill that need. It’s the equivalent of a plant hungering for potatoes or an asexual creature possessing a desire to mate. We don’t observe anything in the natural world that demonstrates a natural desire for a need that isn’t possible to fulfill. Hence, the argument from desire. We hunger for God because He exists. Man’s true final cause is to know and love God.

  48. Not from what I can see conclusive evidence but the question was asked earlier about research into the link between Internet use and faith

    A start at http://arxiv.org/abs/1403.5534 with a write up at http://www.technologyreview.com/view/526111/how-the-internet-is-taking-away-americas-religion

    Not a topic I’ve explored enough to start to get any feel for the quality of the research being done.

    I also came across a Vatican document on communication on the Internet http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/pccs/documents/rc_pc_pccs_doc_20020228_church-internet_en.html which is an interesting read.

  49. Bob,

    Not from what I can see conclusive evidence but the question was asked earlier about research into the link between Internet use and faith

    Awesome! Thank you for finding these and sharing them.

  50. An alternative view at http://www.psmag.com/nature-and-technology/internet-killing-religion-america-80149

    I’ve not taken in all of either sides of this argument. Would love to find some material covering other countries or even a breakdown across geographic areas of the USA, for instance there was some really interesting work done on correlation between internet take up across different states in the USA and reductions in rates of sexual assaults committed by teenage boys. Apparently not all USA states took up the internet at the same rate.

  51. After being there for 12 years… Calvary is totally a cult. Working on documentary about my experience.

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