Podcast #55: Lions and Babies, War and Peace

161 August 2, 2015 by

55_finalIn this episode, the DXPs share their opinions on kids’ sports and Christian’s new Mom Jeans for dads, after which we debate whether Noachian terms should still be used (“Noachian” is an outdated word meaning “outdated”). We then spend some time discussing whether it’s OK to be disgusted both by selling dead baby livers and killing majestic African animals, or if we just have to be saddened by one and indifferent about the other. We take a voicemail about whether Christianity demands participation in war (and if it does, then Jason might be an even worse Christian than Christian, which is quite a feat), and afterwards we insult the South a little bit (because why not?). We then start arguing about who interrupts whom more, which nearly brings the show to an abrupt end. Christian is biebered by Hollywood’s laziness, while Jason’s bieber, once again, involves youths.

Also, guns don’t kill people. Bullets do.

Links from this Episode

161 Comments (click here to leave a comment)

  1. Hey guys,

    Thanks for taking some time to address my voice mail. If I could just respond to a few thoughts you both had…

    1. “The terrible, childish, and naïve analogy”: analogies are not meant to be fully comprehensive treatments of complex topics. They only serve to illustrate a general point.

    2. The analogy actually applies (in a general way) to numerous US conflicts. The gulf war, the kosovo/serbian conflict, the civil war, WW2, and the current war on terror just to name a few.

    3. I agree that most wars are not just.

    4. The current war on terror is an obvious example of a just war. They hate us because we are bombing them? Why then are they killing random Egyptian christians? Were those people also bombing iraq? What about

    Quran (2:191-193) – “And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest]is worse than killing…

    but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)”

    Quran (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” 

     

    Quran (9:29) – “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”  

    Bukhari (8:387) – Allah’s Apostle said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’.  And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally.”

  4. While not all of us are awake in the middle of the night listening to the dulcet tones of Christian and Jason, I do want to offer some pushback on your point #4. Just as the “war of drugs” have proven, it’s not really feasible to wage war against a concept. And even if it were possible to win such a war, one does not go about using bullets and bombs. After all, attitudes towards America has radicalised even more (if such a thing were possible!) since Bush’s ill advised ventures into Iraq.

    It’s also disturbing to me that you somehow equate terror with Muslim. At least that’s the inference I take by your quoting of the Quran. If you’ll recall the original Axis of Evil, Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, only one of those could really be called an Islamic state. North Korea certainly isn’t islamic. Iraq, while under Saddam Hussein’s rule was one of the least Islamic country in the region (where the majority of the population were Muslim), when I visited in the late 80s, it was much more open, with women seen out in public wearing non-traditional garb and sans hijab. Not to mention, we are now what, 16 years into the “liberation” of Iraq and has anybody found any weapons of mass destruction there?

    While I’m not necessarily convinced that there is ever such a thing as a just war, I sure as hell know that Bush’s wars were not just.

  5. Random thoughts:

    • Pretty sure that any good Catholic can’t love themselves and if they do, they have to engage in self-flagellation until the impulse goes away and only soul-crushing guilt remains… or maybe that’s Baptist. I get the two denominations mixed up sometimes.

    • I confess that I’ve used the word “loath” in comments before. But I am sometimes a pretentious asshole when I write things online, so there is that.

    • If you feel the need to kill an animal for sport or a trophy, you are an asshole. Killing for food? Okay. Use as much of the animal as you can. Show it respect. Show some reverence for the taking of a life to sustain your own. But killing for sport? You’re an asshole.

    • I don’t particularly like abortion. I have some difficultly however in having the state controlling women’s bodies, driving the abortion industry underground, and have them face the prospect of jail for a miscarriage.

    • There have been several state investigations now that have cleared Planned Parenthood of the charges of selling organs. They are in compliance with state laws.

    • The question should be if the state laws are moral?

    • Should they harvest and donate organs from aborted fetuses? Is it immoral and wrong to do so? If so, why? Would it be more moral to incinerate them?

    • Would it be immoral for my wife to decide to donate my organs if I were killed today even if I had never filled out an organ donor card?

    • I’m of two minds on the topic. On the one hand, the tissue would be destroyed anyway, so what is the big deal of donating it to science? On the other hand, shouldn’t we treat even a potential human life with more respect?

    • Satirical question: Would more conservatives be in favor of abortion if it were performed by hunters from 500 yards out with a scoped rifle and a permit?

    • Bonus throwback satirical question: Should they be more okay with it knowing that at least 70% of those aborted fetuses would have grown up without knowing Jesus and would have been burning forever in hell instead of being in heaven now?

    • Bonus bonus question: If we could reduce abortions by 50% in this country through a social contract of comprehensive sex ed, free contraceptives to anyone who wanted them, single payer health care, paid maternity leave and disability leave and job protections for pregnant workers, and public day care and preschool for all, would conservatives be okay with that? Or would they oppose such measures because they value their economic dogma more than abortion?

    • We created ISIS with war. And perhaps that is the point. When you unleash violence and war upon a region, the consequences are unknown. World War I was ostensibly about various political alliances fighting one another over one man being assassinated. It brought about wide spread devastation, spawned World War 2 and the genocide of the Jews, spawned the Armenian genocide by the Ottomans, spawned the collapse of the Russian czarist state and ushered in the Communist regime and its genocides… You don’t know. We don’t know what will happen.

    • That practical joke of telling an unwitting American how to say, “I’m gay” in the native tongue wouldn’t go over very well in Uganda now.

    • Again, let’s discuss the moral calculation here. Is a war just if we save X number of innocent lives and kill X-1 number of innocent lives in the process? So as long as we only kill 999,999 innocent folks of one ethnicity to save 1,000,000 of the other, does that make it right? And do we only count the innocent lives our own soldiers take or should we also factor in the lives lost to the resultant famine, disease, ethnic strife, discarded munitions and poisons, and terror groups that follow in the wake of our war?

    • I could have sworn Christian was about to say that he called him Richard Cheney because he didn’t want to insult penises.

    • There are times when war in unavoidable. That doesn’t make it preferable or just.

    • “I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell.” – William Tecumseh Sherman

    • It is libertarian bullshit that the only responsibility of a CEO or board is to profit its shareholders that we’ve all unfortunately swallowed. It’s the mentality of Hell and quite demonic. It’s the system of this world that stands opposed to Christ. Profit is not your only responsibility. You have a responsibility to your country, to the community where you operate, and to your progeny not to create conditions that ultimately make things worse.

  6. The command to kill infidels isn’t limited to the Quran:

    Deuteronomy 13:6-10 – “If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.”

    Deuteronomy 13:13-19 – Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.”

    Deuteronomy 17:2-5 – Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.

    And there are plenty more where those came from…

  8. The difference is in the hermeneutics that both camps employ when reading scripture. Muslims are not “scripture cobblers” like Protestants. The quaran is not “open for interpretation”. You are imputing a Protestant hermeneutic onto a totally different religion. All four major schools of Sunni jurisprudence teach that Jihad is an actual fight against nonbelievers. The gates of ijtihad are closed. (Ijtihad is very close to the catholic concept of Tradition except it doesn’t leave room for development.) The Muslim doctrine of abrogation teaches that whatever Allah says LAST is to be considered our final marching orders. They don’t have to reconcile their scriptures like christians do. Allah can change his mind at any time. Unfortunately, the last books Mohammed wrote are the most vile and violent. (Meccan surras) Mohammed is thought of as the perfect role model for all muslims. His closest followers/generals/disciples are the next best thing. Their teachings and interpretation of the Quran are found in the hadith. Read those for yourself and tell me ISIS aren’t following in their role models foot steps.

    The best way to combat this is to convince all muslims that the Quran is a religion of peace and harmony….. but that’s freaking difficult when the “extremists” have all the best arguments.

  9. “…Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.

    On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but ‘after the first and second admonition,’ as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death… Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame.” St. Thomas Aquinas – Summa Theologica

  10. Bonus bonus question: If we could reduce abortions by 50% in this country through a social contract of comprehensive sex ed, free contraceptives to anyone who wanted them, single payer health care, paid maternity leave and disability leave and job protections for pregnant workers, and public day care and preschool for all, would conservatives be okay with that? Or would they oppose such measures because they value their economic dogma more than abortion?

    Everything but encouraging contraceptives. Contraceptives leads to the expectation that you are in complete control of your fertility, thus more sex, and more opportunities for abortion and STDs. That expectation extends to the thought that you should be able to end pregnancy with abortion.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2012/02/the_false_promise_of_contraception.html

    http://sti.bmj.com/content/78/5/352.full

    http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/teensex.pdf

    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2012/02/the_false_promise_of_contraception.html

  11. Hi greg,

    Dude, I totally 100% agree that Iraq was a total screw job. Although, im not willing to impute greedy evil motives to Bush. I think he made a really really terrible decision on many different levels. However, the actual war on Islamic terrorism is a great idea. It MUST be done. When people are getting bombed, beheaded, burned alive, etc. you simply don’t have many peaceful options. Again, if we have the ability to stop people from committing atrocities we should do it. That’s what “loving thy neighbor” is all about. Yes, there are many atrocities we haven’t stopped. Yes, often times politicians capitalize on the situation to turn a profit. That doesn’t mean we should sit on our hands and do nothing.

  13. My thoughts on organ donation and funerals has always been, what the hell do I care? Once I’m dead and gone, what do I care that the carcass (and that’s what a dead body is) is burned, buried, or carved up? Shouldn’t it be especially true for christians? Since once you’re dead, you’ve ascended to heaven, what do you care what happens down here?

    A lot of European woes lie at the feet of Germans, from WW1 (not realllllly as simple as the assassination of Franz Ferdinand), to the rise of Nazism, and now the punishing austerity measures being dealt to the Greeks.

  15. What if we add to your list of policies the making of abortion illegal? That will probably put a gigantic dent in the number of abortions. Or were there >1million people getting abortions every year pre-Roe?

  16. You’ll note that much of what you’re talking about happening in the region happened as a reaction to the US destabilizing the region.

    if we have the ability to stop people from committing atrocities we should do it.

    So we come back to the Just War argument. I wonder if you recognize that what is just to person a may be unjust to person b? Surely the way to peace and understanding is not through bullets and bombs but rather education? Hell, didn’t Jesus teach you to turn the other cheek?

  17. So we drive it underground. Let women die from infection or malpractice because they’re too scared to get proper medical attention for fear of jail. Make women get certified that their miscarriages were miscarriages and prosecute the ones who can’t for murder. Let them die from ectopic or life threatening pregnancies because their doctors either cannot perform or are too scared to perform an abortion that might save their lives.

    No. I’m not okay with that.

  18. I’m saying adding the additional social nets to support mothers as well. What did America do pre-Roe? Did we make women certify their miscarriages? No. Talk about fear mongering that you complain about from the right.

  19. Not to mention, making anything illegal drives it underground, such as rape and murder. No I’m saying reduce the perceived need and fear that leads women into the false choice of abortion.

  21. The fact that the vast majority of Muslims out there aren’t burning shit down, taking up arms, and trying to kill the other 6 billion folks on the planet should let us know that most of them aren’t rabid fundamentalist cultists, but are normal folks with jobs, families, with the usual aspirations that people have, just like most of the Jewish folks these days who don’t carry out the OT law the way it was written.

    It’s the assholes among all sects that we have to worry about and deal with. And I’m not sure perpetual, neverending war is the way to deal with it effectively.

  23. You are assuming that the Quran calls on every single muslim to take up arms, burn shit down, and kill 6 billion people. It doesnt. They can also simply support the war financially, with their words, or by caring for the families of jihadists. The Quran tediously dictates nearly all aspects of life. From what hand to wipe your ass with, to how a nation should handle wealth. Obviously not every single person in the world can fight all at the same time. People need to stay and run businesses and care for the women.

    You are also assuming that the vast majority of muslims actually know what the quaran teaches. They do not. The quaran must be read out loud in ancient arabic. Many muslims in pakistan, india, africa, etc (that converted under threat of jihad) don’t have the slightest idea what the words they have memorized actually mean. If they should develop some zeal, and if they should take the time to learn, that’s where the problems start cropping up.

  24. Greg,

    The destabilization led to the rise of ISIS for sure, but that’s not what started this mess. Even if I grant that premise, I reject the conclusion that we should now just walk away. “Woops, we fucked up and unleashed a tyrannical monster. Oh well. Give peace a chance. Sorry to all you thousands of innocents being burned alive, beheaded, slaughtered, raped, taken into slavery, etc. We caused this mess and now it’s better to just let you all die and cut our losses. Now THAT is love.

    Jesus did teach us to turn the other cheek. OUR cheek. He didn’t say “if a bully you could easily defeat is killing tens of thousands of innocents…. just turn the other way and worry over corporate greed. Liberals can be real smart on economics and social issues, but they are just flipping retarded on conflict. Hence, the coming republican wipeout in the next election

  25. The fear is that killing babies in the womb will be done for profit and not altruistic reasons. Not that there are any altruistic reasons to kill a baby…. but you get the point

  26. The “numerous states that investigated planned parenthood” were states where the organization doesn’t even participate in organ donation. Lol

    Once the two states that were actually in the video get investigated we will have some info. Doubtful that California will allow that though. Too liberal.

  27. If you share a post on facebook and change the drop down from “friends” to “public”, then (I believe) regardless of your privacy settings it will be visible to everyone – including DXP so that they know that you shared the post.

  28. I don’t know if any will be prosecuted on selling for profit, but maybe for changing the abortion method for getting good “donations” and potentially using partial birth abortions (both are illegal).

    http://thefederalist.com/2015/07/29/why-planned-parenthood-cant-donate-tissue-from-harvested-babies/

    Also, there might be evidence that some of the babies to be aborted were delivered live, and were allowed to die.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/31/bombshell-investigator-says-stemexpress-bought-intact-dead-babies-from-planned-parenthood/

  29. @Christian, you mentioned that Planned Parenthood claims that only 3% of their services are abortions. But of course that stat is manipulated to make abortions seem like a minor paet of their business. They count every single thing they do as a service, a woman coming in for 1 thing might have 10 “services” done by the way they count. See:

    https://youtu.be/KKIOBOFaVYs

  30. Are communists considered left wing extremists? If so, there are some pretty terrible, historically terrible, things done by them in the 20th century.

    Here is an example of left wing extremists from a couple years ago… I didn’t see any flowers put in barrels…

    https://youtu.be/fOCD_T9Qqpc

  31. The organization has been shady for decades. Just another blotch on an already tarnished reputation.

  32. Christian, when you told Jason about his “M.O.” all I could hear was uncle Argyle telling his young nephew, “you don’t speak Latin, well that’s something we shall have to remedy isn’t it?” Maybe a bit random, but there’s a connection however broad.

  33. Yeah, I thought the assertion that the left wing extremist is the hippy dippy dude putting flowers in cop’s guns and eating granola would not hold up looking at history. You guys said these people giving death threats wouldn’t actually do anything contrasting them with people who would actually blow up abortion clinics or kill ‘doctors’ who perform abortions. Statistically, you have to admit this is a ludicrous comparison. The percentage of those people who might actually become violent or murderous towards the dentist is probably the same as the percentage of the right wing extremists who have actually become this murderous or violent. Both numbers are quite small, but both groups maintain the same potential for rage.

  34. “Bonus bonus bonus question: Why is it so often that the people who claim to be hardcore pro-life folks are also the ones who generally are the most gung-ho for going to war?”

    As one who is adamantly opposed to abortion and war, sometimes I think it’s simply a similar cognitive dissonance to telling people God loves them but will glory in your skin sizzling if you do not love him back. At other times I think maybe it’s just many of us who act as you said are just that gullible in believing the man when he scares them into a frenzy. Or, like Kenneth, they are simply convinced there is a greater good overarching the horror of war. The truth is, I don’t know, but it frustrates me too.

  35. Right. Both sides are drawing from the same pool: humans. There are going to be people who will do extreme things for their beliefs, regardless of their beliefs. There isn’t some ontological difference between the people on the left and right. For example, I was a crazy liberal when I was younger, then a became a crazy conservative, now I’m some where in the middle as a crazy Catholic.

  36. Here come some more of that false equivalence.

    Number of dentists who killed a lion that people are angry who are murdered: 0
    Number of doctors who perform abortions who are murdered: >1

    The better leftist extremes to use for your analogy are something like Che Guevarra or Lenin.

  37. They _are_ services. Just because it inconveniences the anti choice people doesn’t mean the reality changes.

  38. Obviously I’m going to disagree with you but I do understand your point. But your argument is basically the same one that’s trotted out about “if we let the gays marry then what’s to stop us from marrying dogs.”

  39. Seems like this is the same sort of argument people make about christianity and its seemingly infinite number of sects. I’m asking with tongue firmly in cheek, but are you some sort of islamic scholar to dictate what is or isn’t the correct way to be a muslim?

  40. Of course, what started this mess is the institution of religion! heh.

    Ultimately though, it still doesn’t seem like you answered my question, surely the way to solve violence isn’t more violence?

  42. I think that it probably depends. Woukd sanctions have stopped hitler? Would the offer of a good old fashioned liberal education slow down ISIS? Maybe generations down the line, but that’s no help to the victims today. Killing them is a great idea, but I agree that it’s not the final solution. We have to find a way to allow modernity to sink it’s teeth into islam. Their religion needs to be watered down until it’s unrecognizable.

  43. If a woman comes in for birth control, and they count every little individual thing as a service such that she received 12 services, then the 3% stat they trot out to show that abortions is not what they are about is BULLSHIT. Abortion is what they are about. Otherwise, they wouldn’t close locations simply due to changes in law about abortion -it’s only 3% of their business right?

    If a car dealership claimed that it wasn’t really in the business of selling cars because the number of new car sales was only a fraction of its total services provided (financing cars, repairing cars, providing manufacture recommended maintenance for cars, cleaning car, and so forth). Of course no one would believe such an outrageous claim. Sure, a car dealership does all of those things, but its purpose is to sell cars.

    Planned Parenthood is by far the largest abortion provider in the country, responsible for up to 25-40% of all abortions (depending on the study) in this country. And 37% of their revenue is from performing abortions. But yeah ONLY 3% of it “services”…

  46. First measure: Don’t get involved in the Middle East in the first place.

    Second measures: Containment. Attacking their funding and ability to arm themselves even if that means pissing off the Saudis who fund most of the more virulent terror groups. Tracking their movements and detaining them as they enter friendly countries. Providing refuge and sanctuary for their victims. Realizing that total safety from terrorism is a lie.

    Unfortunately, I don’t see a way of extracting ourselves from the ISIS mess we created because we created it and because we owe the Kurds our protection.

  48. Not insulating myself. Just not believing the sources. Breitbart is rather infamous for making an outrageous claim that turns out to be completely untrue, but lives on as a zombie lie in the conservative mythos.

  49. Tell me what they said that was untrue? I posted the link because it quoted the undercover guy in a CNN interview. You can not believe the undercover guy if you like.

  51. This guy, knowing that everyone was going to cry “EDITED!!!”, released not only his short edited highlight videos, but also the entire >hour length videos. I thought that was a good move.

  52. Yes, and those who have watched the videos have debunked his most outrageous claims. Except we don’t hear about tissue donation that would otherwise be destroyed, we still hear about selling baby parts.

    There’s a reason for that. The videos started a narrative that will live on regardless of their ultimate honesty or truth.

    Even when the various state investigations come back and absolve PP of wrongdoing, the narrative will have been set. They are a shady organization of nefarious Satanic baby killers and everything they do is evil or suspect and we, as good moral people, must immediately cut off all funding for them and turn over their health care responsibilities to the Christian Scientists.

  53. I think the narrative is fine, however it just might be legal. PP kills babies, also legal. Then they take the remains and give it to a 3rd party in exchange for money, typically referred to as “selling”. Depending on how they go about that exchange of money, it is legal or not. The videos give the public a peek behind the curtain of what is happening, legal or not.

    More information is good isn’t it? Let the public hear and see what is happening, don’t let the pro-abortionists hide behind polite rhetoric.

  54. PP kills babies

    And there’s the Satanic baby killers bit. Not everyone starts from that proposition of yours. But the purpose of the video is propaganda.

  56. Oh please, there are even pro-choicers who say that they are explicitly killing a life; they just don’t care, because of bodily autonomy of the mother.

    So tell me, at what point does that life begin? When coming up with your answer try not to allow the desire for abortion to be legal to color it.

  58. Well if the opinion of some therefore transitively becomes the opinion of all, then everyone who is anti-abortion must therefore believe that it’s okay to kill an abortionist. Which, I trust, you’ll find absurd.

    No one has been able to answer that question. Even the ancient Hebrews differed in their opinion with some saying that life began with the first breath. The Mosaic law differs in its treatment of fetal death from the death of a man.

    Not taking my moral compass from a 3,000 year old text written by an anonymous author however, I would say that the first trimester is very different from the second which is quite different from the third. Third trimester abortion should always be illegal except in instances where it is deemed necessary to preserve the mother’s life.

    First trimester abortion should always be legal in my opinion.

    Most states allow it during the second trimester, and while I”m not entirely comfortable with that, it seems a good place to start any discussion on the matter of abortion. But a debate can’t really start if one side is entirely convinced that the other is comprised of nothing but vile and wicked baby killers gleefully cackling and carving up children for fun and profit. After all, what portion has Christ with Belial? You can’t compromise with such evil. It must be destroyed.

  59. As far as I’m aware and as much as you don’t like it, abortions are still legal in this country. So whether it’s 3% or 103% of planned parenthood’s business, that is irrelevant.

  60. I’m thinking rapes and murders being bad are what drove them underground, not the laws making them illegal.

  64. There are more muslims in the world than pretty much all the other religions combined — if it was true that their religion stipulated all that it said, we would actually all live under sharia law. the fact that we don’t means that most muslims are not actually out there advocating jihad and are in fact moderates who are just living their lives. By the way, i find it humorous that a christian would be advocating watering down another religion or dragging them into modernity, let’s talk about all the ways that christianity is not modern before we start throwing stones.

    Sadly, now that we are where we are, it is true that bullets and bombs have to be part of the equation but surely it is not all. During the cold war, the west funded radio free europe, which extolled the virtues of democracy across the airwaves — propaganda to be sure but it is part of what drove activities in eastern europe.

  65. Abortion IS bad. Even pro-choicers are willing to admit that, they just don’t think it should be illegal.

  66. No. I’m just saying it’s irrelevant to the discussion. To put a different spin on your car dealership example, let’s use printers. Manufacturers sell printers at cost and even at a loss but recoup their money back on selling you toners and ink cartridges. Are they in the business of selling printers? Sure, but they are also in the business of selling ink. One does not negate the other.

  68. Here is a picture German soldiers being forced to watch what they were supporting. Maybe we will have simliar moment in this country with abortion.

  69. Maybe we will, maybe we won’t. And to the both of you, ultimately, the question remains, is a fetus a human being like the Jews who were marched off to concentration camps. I contend no. You may/may not feel differently.

  70. The discussion on this tread of the conversation is specifically about that stat, do discussion of the stat is relevant.

  72. After watching the video, I think that both sides try to skew the data in their favor. I think the video is ridiculous and cherry-picking, but PP might be doing that on their side as well. Even based on the video, I think their abortion services are closer to 3% than to 93%.

  74. It is growing. It has human parents. It has distinct DNA. What else do you need to know to say that it is alive?

  75. You can’t lean towards no, Greg. Pro-choicers have admitted that it’s a life and that it’s murder, and they know in their hearts that it is. Haven’t you been reading this conversation?

  76. I agree so far as I wouldn’t say that it is 94%. But they were trying to determine how many pregnant women who walk in get abortions. But the point of saying it is 3% is to attempt to minimize abortion as part of their business, which is clearly not true.

  77. So does a tumor. Sentience, the capacity for thought, and viability would also be good indicators of a dividing line between a potential human zygote/fetus and a human being.

    Viability happens in the third trimester, but I think is a weak marker.

    Sentience and the capacity for thought happen some time during the second trimester, which is where I think the dividing line between legal abortion and abortion only to save the mother’s life should be.

  79. Get real, a tumor doesn’t have human parents. It also will not result in a an adult walking around if not violently interfered with. Sentience? Capacity for thought? Viability – dependence on mother for life… Careful you don’t create criteria that will allow for murdering infants. Or people in comas.

  82. There are plenty of women’s health organizations that don’t do abortion. And also don’t close up shop and move out of state when abortion laws change.

  85. You guys seem to think that because someone who is pro-choice says that a fetus is “alive” that what they mean is that it’s a person. It’ll really help your case if you stop saying things like that.

  86. All humans are people. That mistake, dehumanizing, is what leads to all sorts of crimes against people. Blacks<whites, Jews<Aryans, women<men, Muslims<Christians …

  87. You are missing my point. My sperm is “alive”, but I’m not killing half a human being every time I jizz into a tissue. Until you guys learn to distinguish between “alive” and a “person”, it’s hard to take you seriously. You insist that people who are pro-abortion commit murder and know it because they admit that the zygote is “alive.” You’re not helping your case.

  89. Your sperm doesn’t have distinct DNA from you, nor has the ability by itself to create a distinct human. The fertilized embryo is the clear being of a new distinct human life. Only people who are blinded by their desire to support the right to abortion can’t seem to see that.

  90. Oh ok, well if you say it’s a person then. Thanks for solving that for all of the philosphers, scientists, and religious people who have debated this ad nauseum. 😉

  91. Dude, you gotta stop saying shit like that. It makes it impossible to have a conversation when you attribute malicious motives to people who believe differently than you. I gotta get to work.

  92. Malicious motives? I’m not. I don’t think every pro-choice person thinks they are killing a human. Although, I’ve spoken to quite extreme progressives who will yell at me: “I don’t give a shit that it is a baby that I’m killing, IT IS MY BODY!”

  93. Just because there is some debate doesn’t mean that one side is not right, or that we shouldn’t rule one way or the other in the mean time. If I recall, some say the debate is raging on global warming…

  94. Your sperm doesn’t have distinct DNA from you

    No, but each one has its own unique combination of genes from my body to produce a unique organism that is distinct from me.

    Careful you don’t create criteria that will allow for murdering infants. Or people in comas.

    Infants definitely have sentience. They also have the capacity for rational thought. And it is already legal for the next of kin to cut off life support from a comatose person that shows no signs of sentience, capacity for rational thought, or viability.

    It makes it impossible to have a conversation when you attribute malicious motives to people who believe differently than you.

    Which is what I said. When you start from the position of ‘my opponents are wicked and vile Satanic baby killers’ there is no capacity for debate or compromise with such evil. These videos are not an attempt to stir a debate about abortion or fetal tissue donation and research. They are an attempt at propaganda to crush the Satanic baby killers.

  96. Okay, there is a debate between the conservative voices who are debating whether we should simply defund the Satanic baby killers or whether we should send in the FBI and the military to shut them down and possibly arrest them.

  97. Shutting off life support from a patient that will never recover, and ripping limb from limb a patient that if we would just wait a couple of months will be completely healthy are COMPLETELY different.

  99. 1. There are still more christians in the world than there are muslims.

    2. As I’ve already pointed out to comrade, you are assuming that

    A. The Quran calls on all muslims to physically fight in jihad…. it doesnt.

    B. You are forgetting that many muslims have no clue what the Quran teaches. The book is only read out loud in dead ancient arabic. Many in india, turkey, africa, europe, etc. don’t have the slightest idea what the words they memorize actually say. I do not for a second believe that most *actual muslims* (people who are fervently Muslim and understand their faith) are against jihad.

    Propoganda might work. I might also recommend burning all the world’s Qurans, and destroying their mosques. Just obliterate the religion as best as possible. OR a la john Travolta in swordfish we could just say “Attention all muslims: the next time any muslim “extremist” group commits an act of terror we are going to nuke both mecca and Medina off the face of the earth…..

    Now THAT would really make them pause

  100. So persecution is good for the Christian church because it causes it to grow and flourish and weeds out the chaff, but persecution would destroy Islam? And nuking a Muslim city would cause other Muslim cities to forsake Islam? You remind me of those crazy news articles where at first you think it’s from The Onion and then you realize it’s serious.

  103. Third trimester maybe? It would take a particularly strange woman to go through the horrors of the first trimester and then decide to abort that late into the pregnancy without some reason.

  107. This has got to be some record. I haven’t even hit play yet on this week’s podcast (and it’s only tuesday) and we’re already at 104 comments.

    I guess disqus really does drive traffic. Oh wait, it’s the same bunch of assholes that always comment. :-X

  110. Haha! Nuking a city would be a horrendous act. Eliminating islam in its entirety would probably take genocide. The end wouldn’t justify the means in either case. (But swordfish was still a bad ass movie, and it does have some practical appeal)

    I have no idea how we can deal with the Muslim problem. I do know that it won’t get dealt with at all so long as everyone keeps on making excuses for the religion. It’s got serious problems. Problems that can’t just easily be swept under the rug. Imagine if the old and new testaments switched places. That’s exactly what islam represents. The religion would need to be completely unrecognizable to become acceptable to the modern world. How the hell do you pull this off? Give everyone in the middle east free interent? Lol

  111. Oh its easy to rile us up, and you know it. I’m surprised that you guys haven’t gotten a backlash from the left over not being completely in step on abortion. Maybe voice mails?

    BTW, I let the euthanasia comments slide a couple of weeks ago, considering that I have a newborn in the house. I didn’t want to get sucked in.

  113. It’s because liberals know that for a woman who choose to have or not to have an abortion, it’s not a monolithic, once and forever yes and no, for each and every situation, there are factors that weigh into it. It’s not our place to dictate to a woman what she chooses to do with her body. So if we don’t do that, why would we enforce anyone else to have the same opinion?

  116. Lol, You guys are sooooo moral. All I want to do is remove the choice for a mother to not kill her child.

  117. That’s not right. I think we as a society have concluded that the personhood (whether fully realized or not) of late term fetuses, for example 39 weeks, trump the unfettered rights of the mother to make decisions solely because it’s her body. I think the choice side of the debate would do better to recognize that whatever personhood an unborn has should be and is in fact recognized by society at large.

    Conversely, the birth side of the debate should admit that rational, honest loving people who respect and value human life can conclude that whatever personhood a zygote or blastocyst or possibly later stages of fetal growth have is not realized enough to merit society’s circumscribing a woman’s right to choos e her own health outcomes with her doctor.

  118. If it’s up for debate what’s the prudent decision? Let’s say 50% of all scientists and philosophers believe a fetus has “personhood”…..

    If you wanted to bomb a certain building to make room for a parking garage, and there was a 50% chance there was a living person inside…… would you still blow it up?

  121. Depends. Am I one of the people who don’t believe there is someone inside?

    Just because people are split on a topic doesn’t mean that there’s a 50% chance that one group is correct.

  122. Well, yeah, and that’s my response to Lane’s question. For me, I pretty much draw the line at third trimester abortions unless medically necessary. The same limits that are imposed by the law.

  126. lols, my bad! and i’m usually one of those people who hate pretentious dicks that use big words. i guess i really just hate myself. 😉

  127. i do believe there are times when mother’s health does become endangered during the course of a pregnancy (hell, even during birth).

  128. Maybe ending the pregnancy would be medically necessary (inducing/c-section), just not directly killing of the child.

  129. There is also the Dublin Declaration:

    “As experienced practitioners and researchers in obstetrics and gynaecology, we affirm that direct abortion – the purposeful destruction of the unborn child – is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman.

    We uphold that there is a fundamental difference between abortion, and necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if such treatment results in the loss of life of her unborn child.

    We confirm that the prohibition of abortion does not affect, in any way, the availability of optimal care to pregnant women.”

    http://www.dublindeclaration.com/

  130. The ACOG issued a statement the next day in response to Walsh’s comments:

    ACOG, Oct. 19: Contrary to the inaccurate statements made yesterday by Rep. Joe Walsh (R-IL), abortions are necessary in a number of circumstances to save the life of a woman or to preserve her health. Unfortunately, pregnancy is not a risk-free life event, particularly for many women with chronic medical conditions. Despite all of our medical advances, more than 600 women die each year from pregnancy and childbirth-related reasons right here in the US. In fact, many more women would die each year if they did not have access to abortion to protect their health or to save their lives.

    http://www.factcheck.org/2012/10/the-life-of-the-mother/

  131. Finally got around to listening to this week’s pod…

    * The Hague, the court of the UN (basically/sorta), is in the Netherlands, not Switzerland. And as I’m sure you well know, Switzerland is a neutral country that doesn’t belong to any international organisation.

    * I daresay that while there are zero conservatives who are pro planned parenthood, there are probably a few conservatives out there who also condemned the killing of cecil. remember that teddy roosevelt, who help set up the national parks system, is a republican. though i guess in this day and age, he’d probably be a democrat.

    * On the whole desensitizing thing, this is quite relevant: http://www.ginandtacos.com/2015/08/04/bedside-manner/

    * I wonder if there is a third scenario: while I found it a bit off-putting to listen to the doctor from planned parenthood describe the procedures in the way she did, you have to remember the setting as she perceived it. She thought she was describing clinically to another professional what is done. I bet that we would all be shocked if we observed an autopsy being performed by a professional. Does that mean that what they’re doing is something immoral just because our humanity recoils at that act? This is similar to the discussion that you guys have had previously about vernacular, where two christians speaking to one another would use words and phrases that a normal person like me would have no idea about.

    * On the idea of a “clean” war (e.g. Desert Storm), to be honest, there really is no such thing because even the example you used is flawed. As have been told innumerable times, the whole reason why Al Qaeda rose was because Bin Laden was very much against the idea of non-Muslims occupying holy land (e.g. Saudi Arabia — where the US & allied forces were staged before going into Kuwait). So, it could very well be said that had there not been a first gulf war, al qaeda and 9/11 probably wouldn’t have happened.

    – And if you want to take the whole unintended consequences thing even further back, Bin Laden himself was trained and basically used American weapons during the war in Afghanistan in the 80s. So if the Soviets hadn’t invaded Afghanistan in the 80s, Bin Laden would probably still just be a rich saudi playboy somewhere.

    * The idea that the managers of publicly traded corporations are only obligated to maximize the return on equity of its shareholders is pretty much bullshit. Even Milton Friedman, a big a lover of “free markets” as you’ll ever find disabuses us of that idea. It’s like the food expiration thing that John Oliver mentioned a few weeks ago, it’s one of those things that sounds right but has no actual basis in reality.

    * The wife from Married is Judy Greer. I had/have the biggest crush on her.

  133. So what percentage of certainty would it take for you to pull the trigger. 70% possibility there isn’t a kid in the building you were gonna blow up? 80%?

  135. You have people who don’t believe it is a sentient person and people who do. Those who think it “might” be a person (your scenario) usually side with the pro-lifers. The majority of people believe one way or another.

  137. Reread this qualifying statement:

    We uphold that there is a fundamental difference between abortion, and necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if such treatment results in the loss of life of her unborn child.

  138. I say we make a rule when trying to decide if a human is sentient or not (if that’s going to be the only reason not to kill the human). I say lets not be hasty and rush in for the kill, lets sleep on it for… I dunno… 10 months. Seem fair?

    I personally like the rule: it is always wrong to intentionally kill an innocent human.

  139. @Jason, I have this “friend” who has never really listened to U2 before. He is completely unfamiliar with their music. What would you advise that he listen to first?

  140. Which is simply semantics. It’s a late term abortion which will result in the death of the child to save the mother, but we’re not going to call it that because we don’t like abortion.

  141. As I understated it, late term abortions are completely unnecessary. The process to get the remains of the baby out for these abortions are no more invasive on the mother’s health than attempting to remove a live baby. A lot of times you still must induce the mother, you just skip the step of killing the child. In the case of partial-birth abortions (which were made illegal due to their brutality), you just skip the step of vacuuming out the brain. The ending of the pregnancy isn’t so much the goal as killing the baby in these “medical” procedures.

  143. @Jason, kenneth,

    What do you think of this article from Catholic Answers: “Dropping the Atomic Bomb Was Wrong. Period.”
    http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/dropping-the-atomic-bomb-was-wrong-period

    My Country, Right or Wrong

    Americans have another blind spot when it comes to evaluating our country’s political actions—perhaps especially our military adventures, because these are seen as patriotic events. The blind spot is nationalism. Patriotism, love of one’s native land, is a genuine virtue, to be sure. But when it becomes nationalism—an excessive veneration of one’s country and its government—it becomes a vice.

    This vice is nothing less than a heresy condemned by Pope Leo XIII in 1899 as “Americanism.”

    Got to love a church that will define a heresy such as “Americanism”.

  144. I know I’m a little late to the party here, but listening to the podcast, you both talk about the planned parenthood issue as if It was a fact they were selling fetus body parts. It has been proven many times over that they don’t sell the parts for a profit. They get reimbursed for the cost of donating tissue, but this is a donation, one that the patient chooses. Many patients who chose abortion due to a fetal abnormality want to do donate the tissue For medical research so that a cure can be found and other mothers won’t be faced with that same decision. It’s actually a really honorable thing, and it’s pretty offensive to the women who go through that scenario to be made out as if they are selling their babies parts.

  145. I don’t think they are going to get PP for selling body parts (even if they are receiving money in exchange for body parts…) . However, federal law requires that no alteration in the timing or method of abortion be done for the purposes of fetal tissue collection (42 U.S.C. 289g-1). The doctors in the videos seem to admit changing methods of abortion to get certain desired donations. Further, partial birth abortions are illegal. If they are able to donate fully intact babies (as mentioned in the videos), they may be using partial-birth abortions. Or they might be inducing live babies (probably unintentionally) and allowing the baby to die – also very illegal. So it is more than whether or not baby parts are being sold for profit.

    I of course want abortion to go away. But, giving the fact that it is legal, I absolutely want it done in the most above board way. If PP is really for women’s health, let that be their focus. The reason changing methods and timings are illegal, is because it shifts emphasis from concern for the mother’s health to that of the quality of the potential donation. And that is even more troubling if it turns out that decisions are being driven by money and not by health.

  147. I agree with you, Natalie. That was the point (at least my point) in the discussion about how something may come across as crass or awful to us regular folk when being discussed by a professional (i.e. a pathologist describing an autopsy), but to them it’s just a fact of their daily profession. The “uproar” over PP is by people who already didn’t like PP. Everyone else seems to understand that tissue is donated for research all the time. I’m an organ donor, so when I die, assuming someone wants my alcohol-soaked liver, they can have it. Even if it’s donated, someone has to pay for the storage and the shipping and delivery and all that. I hope someone gets it though, because from what I understand, liver regenerates, so if they drink lots of water, they should be able to get the vodka smell out.

  148. This reminds me of the Jared story from last week’s podcast. And of course, it’s also related to the ACORN, Van Jones, and Shirley Sherrod episodes from the last few years.

    The right makes a big splash of some story, it gets recycled through the right wing media, to the point where it becomes an accepted truth. And of course when the actual truth comes out, everybody publishes a tiny retraction, meanwhile, reputations are ruined and people are erroneously fired from their jobs.

    http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2015/08/of-course-alinsky-obsessed-right.html

  151. I think this might be different. Each video is getting worse. Hell, I could barely watch the 5th one. And there are going to be 12 total.

    BTW, at least a dozen states have started investigations into PP, and 3 states have already cut off state funding: Alabama, New Hampshire, and Louisiana. I think this going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

  152. And all of those states are run by or have GOP legislatures.

    They’ve been gunning for PP for years and now they have their excuse for an all out full press.

  154. Christian Kingery,

    The “rant rave” website has some glitches on my mobile platform. I have the “note 4” and the top of the website is a cluttered mess. I can take a screen shot and email it to you if that would be helpful?

  155. Yeah, I’m aware. It’s because I moved it to Azure a couple nights ago and some files had been updated on the server that I didn’t have in my local copy. I’m gonna fix it today probably. Thanks.

  156. Really cool concept though dude! It’s like a place to blog if you don’t feel like spending 600 bucks for a decent website

  157. Thanks, Kenneth! We had some success with building a community when we first built it in 2009, but it went unattended for 4-5 years. We’re gonna see if we can get it going again.

  158. Great idea…. although, I think that IF you can pull it off, it would be cool to be able to “follow” certain contributors and have a “newsfeed” following their rants and comments.

  159. I’d like to throw out that if you’re not also anti-war, anti-death penalty, and pro-gun control, you’re not so much pro-life as you are pro-birth.

  161. I’m down with that. But that cuts both ways. If you pride yourself of being against violence and war, yet are okay with the killing of the most innocent of society – tbe unborn – you are hypocrite.

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