Episode #67 of Drunk Ex-Pastors begins with a brief discussion about all the ways Jason is the worst Catholic ever, but then moves on to the question of why (1) if you love guns you’re most likely an evangelical Christian, and (2) if you’re an evangelical Christian you most likely miss the entire point of everything Jesus taught. We take a call from an ex-Catholic atheist asking what the point of prayer is, which leads to the issue of why smart atheists always choose stupid Christians to engage rather than picking on ones their own size. The Roseburg shooting comes up, giving way to a discussion about whether the gunman was targeting religious people, and if so, whether it’s OK to be a religious person who lies about being religious. We then launch into our two new segments, “Dick Move, God” and “Feeding Friendsy,” the former of which tells the story of young women getting crushed to death for not being hot enough, and the latter supplies some important tips for the post-Rapture crowd who got left behind. Jason is biebered by having to waste his time patiently, while Christian’s bieber has to do with subjecting himself to idiots in the noble service of this podcast.
Also, you’re a non-practicing Jew? Hey, I’m a non-practicing virgin!
Links from this Episode:
kenneth
I never read the “new bible books” either! Ha!
There is nothing about being “Christian” that makes one love guns. Its an american tradition. If you love the founding fathers, the constitution, guns, religious liberty (mostly just for christians though), states rights, limited government, bible churches etc. You are best described as a “fundamentalist american”. Not a “fundamentalist Christian”. Im sure there are fundamentalist christians all over the globe whom dont promote gun ownership. Although I have absolutely no research to back that up lol
ComradeDread
Random thoughts:
• “Alcohol: the cause of and solution to all of life’s problems.”
• I’m on Xanax today, which is almost as awesome.
• I like the Ethiopian canon which seems to have included just about every scroll they could get their hands on. I think they’re up to 88 books.
• Dude, I get it. I’m on Facebook too. I want to tear my hair out most days.
• Christians are big on guns because guns are a part of the American cultural identity that is ingrained into us. Sometime in the 20th century, Christianity started to merge with American Nationalism. Guns, capitalism, nationalism, American Exceptionalism, the American cultural myth, politics, and individualism are all as much a part of Christianity now as the Eucharist or Sunday services are. Walk into most churches in America these days and you’ll find an American flag. Sometimes it’s proudly displayed at the front of the auditorium. Whereas in Christ’s day, it would have been unthinkable for a church to display the Imperial Eagle.
• True, but the Old Testament is rife with examples of God commanding people to kill in His name.
• God really calmed down once he had a Kid.
• Silly, Jason. Black people don’t count when it comes to guns, voting, or not being killed by the police.
• You can’t defend against an ambush.
• Why would we start listening to the words of Jesus now when we haven’t really listened since the minute He left?
• But when they said we would suffer at the hands of unjust men, surely they only meant being forced to bake a cake for a gay couple and not being killed because we choose pacifism!
• Again, American Nationalism has merged with Christianity, so Americanism comes ahead of Christianity.
• Stop being a dick and stop hurting people, and we’ll stop complaining about your sect of Christianity.
• Love God and Love your Neighbor? Sounds like hippie commie talk.
• I will never be over my fear of flying because I worked IT support for 11 months for the people who build airplanes.
• Prayer, when I do it, is like an inexpensive therapy session. I talk (yell, cuss, complain) to God about everything going on and how I can’t take it anymore and just lay it all out until I’m emotionally spent, then I feel better. Even if nothing changes, sometimes just saying everything you’re feeling and worried about out loud actually helps you.
• Now that I have an ear for it, I can’t believe the amount of bullshit and urban legends presented as fact from a pulpit.
• Wait, so we can’t even burn these Protestants at the stake anymore? God damn it! That was half of the fun of being a Catholic! Next you’ll be telling us we can’t have pogroms against the Jews! Wait… what? Oh, man… fricking hippies.
• I kid, I kid, guys.
• Please don’t burn me at the stake when you fulfill your secret Papist plot to take over America.
• Well, we’re not standing against injustice or challenging those in power, so we’re not generally experiencing persecution, so we need to invent some acts of persecution to reconcile the facts that we, as American Christians live, more or less, a rather comfortable life when Jesus promised that His real followers would face persecution. Does that mean we aren’t really His followers? (Maybe) But the easier answer is to invent persecution and tell ourselves that we are persecuted.
• There is no waiting period in some states. So if you live in Texas, you can walk into a gun store and come right out with an arsenal.
• Hey, if Peter could deny Jesus three times and still end up as the Pope, you know, there’s probably hope for Jason.
• Perhaps ironically, the Bible does call on Jews to kill and put to death entire cities if their inhabitants turn away from Judaism. So we Christians use a holy book that actually condemns us to death as heretics.
• Well, if you die at the hands of a deranged gunman proclaiming your Christian faith, you’ll probably be used as a sermon illustration for decades to come, so… you’ll have that going for you.
• Yep. If you take the book of Job as literal, God is really the villain of the story. I don’t see any way around that, unless you absolutely believe in God as the tyrant of the universe and yourself as a subject who exists without rights or expectations solely for his amusement and if you do, man… what a horrific universe. Heaven and hell would be equal torment. Hell because the tyrant is torturing you. Heaven because you must continue to live and exist under the tyrant for his amusement.
• Once again, we all once thought that Jesus was going to come, rip us away from this Earth, to have a seven year feast, while at the same time, He was also actively torturing our loved ones who were LEFT BEHIND!!!! with famine, hunger, thirst, natural disasters, demon locust scorpions, and a totalitarian government run by Satan’s son, and if they gave in to their hunger or thirst and took a mark of that government, God would torture them forever, and we’d be happy with that.
• Depression is a bitch.
JasonStellman
If there’s no connection in this country between Christianity and gun culture (since the gun thing, as well as “the founding fathers, the constitution, religious liberty, states rights, limited government, bible churches etc.” represent an “American tradition”), then I guess my question becomes, “Why are Christians such better Americans than everyone else?”
kenneth
Hi Jason,
I think that bring “christian” is part of this american tradition. Its not a separate thing that happens to be connected. Im not saying that this is THE american tradition, although most republicans would say so. Instead, ill call it the “trickle down” tradition. The thought that was past on to the people via nationalist propoganda and american exceptionalism. The followers of the “agenda”. This group wants others to fully assimilate on THEIR terms. “This is how we do things, and if you dont like it, feel free to live somewhere else”.
I would say that you are in the tradition of the people. The outcasts, the immigrants, the forgotten. Those that showed up after the fact, and got pushed to the side. Exceptionalism is almost entirely absent from this group. We could call this the “tinkerers tradition”. Tinkerers say “I know yall were founded in THESE principles, but why dont we consider THIS instead”.
Both are “american”, but obviously the two lines of thought are on a collision course. Christian Fundamentalism is part and parcel of the first tradition. Not a separate group that happened to get tangled into it.
kenneth
When do you think christianity merged with nationalism/exceptionalism? I feel like I can trace it back to the birth of our nation. The bible has always been the companion of the nationalists.
Evan McKee
Know matter what your beliefs are there are going to be tensions between them and scripture because there is tension between scripture and other scripture. Everybody believes some parts of the Bible and not others. The question is, are you willing to admit this or are you going to invent a bunch of absurd new doctrines that you pretend can solve all the inconsistencies.
kenneth
Thats an excellent question begging question!
OriginalSoul
Some thoughts on thanksgiving: If you say that God is essentially behind everything and therefore it makes sense to give thanks to him, then the Problem of Evil becomes even more relevant. You can’t say that God is behind everything, and therefore deserves thanks without acknowledging that he also deserves blame for all the pain in the world as well.
Lane
lol! I also didn’t read the 7 (not 6) Deuterocanonical books (and some additional passages to other books) before becoming Catholic.
BTW, what’s up with Wisdom being a chick? If ONLY I would have known that earlier… Ha =)
Lane
“Please don’t burn me at the stake when you fulfill your secret Papist plot to take over America.”
It’s not a secret.
kenneth
I think we skipped it because we already had so much extra reading to do.
“Guess what? All those bible studies you did? Thats a good start. Now you can read all of church history, the fathers, ecumenical councils, and writings of the Popes. Oh, yeah, and there is new bible books. Have fun!”
Lane
I think I agree with Christian about the lying to the deranged guy. There does seem to be something different about lying to a lone crazy guy, versus to a ruthless national organization such as ISIS taking over a region.
I try to imagine what I would do if I were put in the circumstance in Oregon. I am also a father of 3, so that is the first thing that immediately comes to mind. But is that a lack of Faith in God’s provision? I don’t know. I probably wouldn’t directly answer the question at all, thus avoiding the lie in the first place. I would like to think that I would say something like: “It doesn’t have to end like this; you don’t have to do this. There is still time to stop. God will forgive you, just stop and repent! God forgive him for he does not know what he does.” But who knows, I would probably just end up playing dead.
Lane
Exactly! It’s not like I stopped reading Christian-ie things. I started reading church history, church fathers, and the saints.
Lane
Christians concerned about what will happen to their pets after the Rapture, worry no more! The After the Rapture Pet Care will be there for you. There is just a one time registration fee.
Brilliant.
ComradeDread
Maybe. But I think the more recent spin on Christianity came about during the 40’s and 50’s and was heavily influenced by conservative pushback against the New Deal and anti-communist hysteria.
I recall an article on Politico recently that discussed how business influenced American Christianity in the 50’s. If I find the article, I’ll link it.
Lane
Christian, did you ever find your trash can?
JasonStellman
Well I certainly have blamed him for my share of difficulties over the past few years….
kenneth
Also, I think the Schaeffer family really played a large role in developing modern conservatism. Still, the question remains: was this format the proximate cause of current fundamentalism? Or was it merely a political party adjusting its positions to attract a tradition that already existed?
Christian Kingery
Ha ha! Yes, it was in the cupboard in the bathroom. I only found it because I was looking for toilet paper!
Christian Kingery
Huge role. At least according to Crazy for God.
kenneth
This democratic debate is a snooze fest. These fools have no chance. Grandpa Sanders, scandalous Hilary, and a goggle of total losers in the background. 2016 wipeout here we come.
ComradeDread
Yes, just keep telling yourself that as you root for the deranged clown car.
Aaron Fountain
Does the lack of parallelism in the following sentence indicate that Christian wrote the podcast description or that Jason is too depressed to pay attention: “We then launch into our two new segments, “Dick Move, God” and “Feeding Friendsy,” the former of which tells the story of young women getting crushed to death for not being hot enough, and the latter (?) supplies some important tips for the post-Rapture crowd who got left behind.”
Perhaps a better structure would have been “of which the former tells … and the latter supplies …” I know the podcast entertains trivialities, but some things are important.
PS – I would never subject myself to the research required to do the Feeding Friendsy segment. Keeping some friends hidden is the only way to maintain those friendships.
PPS – I’m not sure whether I enjoy the actual Feeding Friendsy bit or the consternation it causes Christian more.
Christian Kingery
LOL @boywonder23k:disqus.
Christian Kingery
Ha ha. Jason wrote it. 🙂
By the way, I noticed that my friend count has gone down over the past two weeks!
kenneth
Haha yeahhhhh, thats what they were doing! No hope. Its gonna be a wipeout dude. I like Bernie but a PawPaw isnt electable, and Hilary is an easy beat now that she is totally scandalous. I predict record majorities of the house and senate and an easy breezy stroll into the white house for whomever comes out of the clown car.
Ive said it before, but its worth saying again now. Nobody wants a pussy liberal in the white house during war time. ISIS and Russia nearly insure republican success.
ComradeDread
People are tired of near constant war. And they still remember the last GOP president. And no one possessing a shred of sanity wants to go to war with Russia over Syria or the Ukraine.
Remember, kids, duck and cover.
kenneth
Fear trumps prudence. Get it? “Trumps” 😉
ComradeDread
It’s all fun and games until we’re trapped in Vault-Tec Vaults under attack from super mutants.
ComradeDread
Bad week. Depression. But on the plus side, I was told on Facebook that I’m going to hell again, so that makes me smile.
Christian Kingery
Sorry to hear about the depression, Comrade. Make sure you’re doing your daily devotions to keep the devil away.
ComradeDread
Okay, let’s see what the word of the Lord is for today… Hmm… “For what hath man of all his labour, and of the vexation of his heart, wherein he hath laboured under the sun? For all his days are sorrows, and his travail grief; yea, his heart taketh not rest in the night. This is also vanity.”
Okay, yeah, I feel better. 🙂
Christian Kingery
Ha ha. I do like me some Solomon.
MIke
I still don’t understand the butthurt over atheists refusing to debate christian apologists (that craig/dawkins post you linked to is a real gem, btw), especially now that so many debates have already happened. What’s left to be debated? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, debating an evangelical apologist is pointless. Despite all of his accolades, academic accomplishments and debating skills, Craig’s sole purpose of debating is to convert everyone to his brand of Christianity which he believes is the only Truth. What’s the point of debating someone like that? The only good I see come out of debates between atheists and christian apologists is that people, who were truly open to listening to both sides, start to consider lines of thought and new ideas that they had never considered before.
JasonStellman
I think formal debates are usually pointless, regardless of what they’re about.
Mike
I tend to agree. But to belittle someone for refusing to engage in those pointless debates reeks of a desperateness and an obsessive desire for legitimacy. “Ohh [insert debater here], destroyed [insert other debater here]! See? We were right all along!” I’m sure all sides do it. I’ve just seen it a lot from the christian apologist camp.
ComradeDread
Yeah, Ecclesiastes, the one book of the bible that isn’t quite as inspired by God as the rest and shouldn’t be taken as truth according to biblical literalists.
Lane
Ecclesiastes is one of my favorite OT books! It was existential before existential was cool.
kenneth
Dawkins hasnt refused to engage in formal debates. He only refuses to have a formal debate with Craig. Which is a smart move on his part, because he isnt qualified to have that debate. He would certainly lose, and he knows it. Still….. that kind of makes Dawkins a pussy dont ya think?
I think that formal debates are awesome! The “anti debate” crowd hold unrealistic expectations. What would it mean for a debate to be useful? Everyone in the audience changing their position? Disagreement on a controversial issue finally being resolved? For me, the point is to learn something I didnt know before.
ComradeDread
In my experience, debates aren’t about rational arguments, having a dialog, or facts as much as they are about style. sophistry, and pithy sound bytes.
In the end, both tribes involved will claim victory and will still view their opponents as ignorant or foolish.
Potomacist
Have you seen any of the Hitchens v. Wilson debates? I’m not sure why Wilson is heralded as some sort of christian intellectual but the back and forth is quite amusing and the hitchslap is as good as ever
Potomacist
this is…. amazing.
kenneth
Political debates certainly run that way. But even then I would rather listen to a debate than a speech. A debate is essentially a documentary with checks and balances.
Have you ever spent hours reading a book or watching a documentary only to later discover it was a totally biased propoganda piece? That kind of intellectual deflation doesnt happen in a debate format.
Its enjoyable for me to hear both sides arguments with the opposing view present to keep the info honest.
Mike
I think Craig’s style is to confuse the shit out of everybody, muddy the water, present premises that he knows cannot be adequately refuted in the allotted time, then declare victory. I’m guessing this might be part of the reason Dawkins won’t take the bait.
Craig’s ultimate goal for the audience (everybody) is not to think and weigh the validity of each side of the argument. According to him and his religious beliefs, he is the holder of the one and only Truth and he’s already won and there will never be anything that can convince him otherwise. It’s like talking to a witty, intelligent brick wall.
kenneth
They certainly COULD be refuted in time, but there arent any big name atheists who happen to also be great at debate. Plus, the atheists are wrong so that makes Bills task pretty easy 🙂
That last half of your comment shows why you dont like debates. If you go into it wanting the participants to change their minds you are bound to be disappointed. These guys are PhDs. They already know what the other guy is gonna say. There are libraries of books adressing the points and counter points. These events are for the rest of us that dont have the time and money to go through all the literature. A great debate is one where the *most* possible relevant information is shared with the public.
Ive always thought that Bill conducted himself as a gentlemen in these exchanges. Even while the other side offers sneering insults, character attacks, and ridicule.
jeremiah
On a super cool note, Eagle vs Shark is now on Netflix. You’ll be balloanaH away…or immensely irritated, people seem to either love it or hate it. Have a good weekend y’all.
Serena
This is not a debate but a conversation between Fr. Coyne and Richard Dawkins, and you can see Dawkins admires his intellect https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po0ZMfkSNxc Here another one with Neil degrasse Tyson and Fr. James Martin http://www.startalkradio.net/show/exploring-science-and-religion-with-richard-dawkins/ Jesuits FTW.
David
Again, a massive amount of ignorant generalising going on. Guess that’s okay for two white bread leftists – huh?
I’ve been a second amendment advocate since around ninth grade: and I’m black. Live in Vermont and am NOT an evangelical. The people I’ve collected and shot guns with were not evangelicals or Christians – but typically attend no church and are skeptical of any organised religion. I’ve carried a concealed weapon since I was 21 in Vermont and never endangered anyone. In fact, nobody ever knew. They were also all law abiding folks without any hostility to law and order nor people different than them.
That’s how we roll in the northeast, Jason.
Culture isn’t math. It’s all over the place. People are individuals (especially in America) who often do not fit stereotypes. Look at Hunter S. Thompson? He was a pretty radical leftist, but likewise a pronounced second amendment advocate.
Your show hates it when evangelicals, “conservatives”, or whoever else say “all leftists are this” or “all gays are this” Why do it to gun rights advocates? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander – right?