In our very first video-recorded episode of Drunk Ex-Pastors (courtesy of David and Kevin from the Charred Barrel Society that was recorded at the Toronto video production), Jason and Christian explore the merits of a new religion called “Pastafarianism,” after which we address the “War on Christmas” and the supposedly nationwide outcry over Starbucks’ new holiday cups in particular. We then take a listener’s question about how much a potential president’s religion matters before addressing the recent terrorist attacks in Paris. We spend a fair bit of time debating another caller’s question about whether prayer really works, which leads us down various rabbit holes such as why God allows evil, what role free will plays in God’s plan, and whether biblical history really functions the way many believers wish it did. Our attention then turns to the phenomenon of non-religious people sending their children to Christian schools, which causes our resident agnostic to both bemoan his own youth while simultaneously wondering whether his own kids could use a bit more Jesus in their lives. Our “Dick Move, God” segment introduces us to someone who unfortunately seemed to experience God killing their good parent while praising the crappy one. Christian is biebered by Hollywood money, while Jason’s bieber involves having clueless followers.
Also, “Don’t worry about the vase.”
Links from this Episode:
kenneth
There was so much good shit in this podcast that I cant think of any one thing to comment on! Very enjoyable, and nice to see Jason defend some christian thought.
On Gods will and unanswered prayer
Jason was in fact giving the exact same answer to the question of Gods will that I offered. The only difference is that he draws the line at childrens hospitals, natural disasters, famine, crime, intense suffering, etc. THAT is all perfectly explainable by simply trusting Gods Word and goodness through faith. But Samson killing 30 random people? Noooooo, that goes WAY too far! A “good” God would never do something like that. Haha c’mon! For me the problem of unanswered prayer is just that. Its a problem. If there was a scale that weighed the probabilities of Gods existence this would definitely fit on the “not probable” scale along with hell, evil, suffering, and certain passages of scripture. But for me, the other side of the scale is soooo much heavier that these things are easily covered by faith.
On Christian Kingerys question concerning free will and heaven:
It could be that heaven is only actualizable once we go through this life first. Which life? A life where there is intense suffering, loss, and danger of hell fire. If that is even POSSIBLE (and i don’t think you can prove that it isnt) then the christian is justified in trusting Gods goodness.
On starbucks christmas cups:
The greatest travesty here is that its actually a funny and cool idea to make them say Merry Christmas and write that on the cup. If the movement was started in a more charitable spirit it could have been a nationwide movement. But noooooooo, he had to go the “starbucks hates christ” route.
On France:
Sam Harris has a great solution to the problem of ISIS i.e. collision with modernity. The war of ideas must come first and foremost. The war of bullets and laws will never resolve the issue. As it stands, so long as no one will name the problem, or even acknowledge that a Islamic problem exists (voldemort effect) the war of ideas cant even begin.
On Ted Cruz:
Still think he will be president of the US in just a matter of time. Watch as he continually creeps up the polls.
On Neil Covuto,
I think Neil was actually LYING throughout that whole segment. Taxing the top 1% of INDVIDUALS may not cover college. But what about taxing the biggest corporations? And why didnt he ackowledge the fact that once the government took over education they would FORCE costs down. Garbage.
JasonStellman
For my part, there is a distinction between God allowing natural laws and cause-and-effect to do their thing (the conditions for an earthquake cause an earthquake, which then causes a tsunami) on the one hand, and God actively empowering a man to murder people on the other. A better parallel would be that Samson wanted to smoke some guys, and God didn’t stop him (since God “doesn’t do control”).
Chris Fisher
• I’m not a Pastafarian, but I am a registered Dude-ist Priest (http://dudeism.com/). Oddly, I think I’m more proud of that title than I am of my degree from bible college.
• So if you ever come out and marry one another, I can perform the ceremony.
• I believe that God exists in three persons, one of whom sent another down to become human via being conceived by a 13 year old Jewish peasant girl to save mankind from the curse of death that He placed upon them by being wrongfully executed by the State and that three days later, he came back to life in a new form and promises to resurrect us if we believe in Him and become His disciples.
• Granted, I suppose that isn’t quite as crazy as believing in Xenu, but eh, you know… it’s still pretty weird.
• We don’t have to worry about Mitt! Mr. 47% would tank hard in the election and he knows it. All of the angst about the GOP is pretty common lately. They are divided between the faction serving the 1%, the religious right faction, and the racist fringe faction. With campaign finance laws out the window, all of these factions now have deep pockets that can influence the primaries and each of which have divergent goals, even if they all agree on some general policies. Eventually, they’ll all probably coalesce around a party guy who talks Christianese to the rubes, but will focus on cutting taxes and regulations for his true masters like they always do.
• The 666 Club. Like the 700 Club, but with blackjack and hookers. So pretty much exactly like the 700 Club.
• I did a tour in the Arctic with the 22nd Reserved Corps in the War on Christmas. I saw things. Elves, man. Fucking elves everywhere. You fired and fired, but just they kept coming, climbing over mountains of fallen elf bodies, charging us with their candy cane bayonets. Then the fat man came and dropped napalm from his sleigh. Kowalski and Fitz went up like Roman candles. They were screaming and shrieking as the fat man screamed, “Ho ho ho…” and flew off in the night.
• And that is why I choose to celebrate Hanukkah even though I’m not Jewish.
• It’s also why I rig up a Claymore to the top of the chimney every year when I hang the Xmas lights.
• How dare you take away the pagan iconography away from my Christian holiday cups!
• As I got up and prayed Sunday morning before I grabbed my bible, got into my SUV with a Jesus fish on the window, turned one of the three Christian radio stations on my presets, drove to a church with a cross prominently displayed on the building and stained glass windows picturing Christian themes, then dropped my children off at Sunday School, and went into the main building to listen to my pastor proclaim the word of God, I did realize just how persecuted for my faith I am in this country. I think I deserve a chapter in Foxe’s Book of Martyrs.
• A notable exception for Jason’s rule of thumb. I would vote for Jimmy Carter or any Christian like him, that is, a guy who’s actually gotten into the trenches with the poor and did something to help them.
• I’m voting for President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho
• Oh for fuck’s sake… not abortion again… here we go to 200 comments. Let me spare us all:
“Let’s not outlaw it, let’s try and reduce the number of abortions….”
“The sexual revolution sucks…”
“They’re all Satanic Child Killers…”
Repeat 50 times until everyone is pissed at each other.
• The problem with bombing these people back to the stone age is that they are already living with that sort of mentality.
• The French had to deal with actual Nazis. I don’t think they’re afraid of pathetic medieval cowards.
• Speaking of WWII, one of the things we could and probably should do (but probably won’t), is ally temporarily with the Russians and coordinate a joint response to ISIS that would also involve crafting a political settlement that resulted in Assad’s departure.
• One of the things we also should do, but probably won’t, would be to go after Saudi nationals that are funding ISIS, freezing their accounts and assets, arresting them as collaborators.
• And lastly, another group we should utilize would be Anonymous. They’ve already started going after ISIS online propaganda sites and accounts. We should reach out to them and see if they’ll ally temporarily with the US government to further disrupt ISIS’ online activities.
• But hell, we’ll probably just end up sending in ground troops.
• Let us all pray that God would help us in the distress that He could have prevented, but didn’t. A-men…
• Or to put in Facebook meme terms: God won’t stop the planes from hitting the Twin Towers, but He will intervene and fuse two I-beams from the fallen buildings to form a cross. Isn’t that amazing proof that He exists and watches out for us? Hal-le-lu-jah…
• I found a bible intact in the midst of the rubble of a school destroyed by a tornado where 30 children died. Praise Jesus.
• One of the reasons I point these out is because how simplistic and dumbed down the Christian answer to the problem of evil has gotten lately. When, I think, the only biblical explanation for these things is, “I don’t know.”
• The difference between accepting “I don’t know” as an answer on natural disasters and the normal evils of the world and God commanded genocide should be obvious, but it is a question of agency. In the former, God would have chosen a policy of either non-intervention or using his body, the Church, as the agent of his goodness to relieve the distressed, feed the hungry, house the homeless. In the latter example, God is actively intervening and enabling a divine murder spree.
• Or “I need you to be my hands and feet in this world to bring my love and healing to them” vs. “I hate those bastards. Go kill them in my name.”
• I don’t regret my exposure to Calvary Christianity. I regret that I believed that I possessed the Truth and stopped being curious about other faiths and beliefs. I wish I had been exposed to Catholic thought, Orthodox thought, Mainline Protestant teachings, Buddhist teachings, the Talmud, the Koran, and the works of atheist philosophers.
And I wish I had been exposed to evolution in a way that wasn’t automatically skewed towards, “Well, this is all just false because Genesis 1:1…”
And that is what I hope to instill in my kids: that sense of curiosity and wonder about things so that they are never satisfied with a limited world view as the end all, be all of human knowledge.
• I wish church had involved less sitting around listening to a lecture about getting taken up into the sky one day while God destroyed the world and more busing us down to homeless shelters to feed the poor.
• I wish someone had told me that chronic depression wasn’t a Satanic attack or spiritual warfare to be prayed over, but a treatable medical condition and directed me to a health care professional for treatment.
• Taxing corporations will get you the money for college just fine. So could cutting the defense budget. So could cost controls in public education.
• The glee from conservatives is tribal identity. The college student is a stand in for all socialists everywhere: the greedy, stupid, lazy moocher who doesn’t understand that you have to work to get what you want. Therefore when Neil shows her up, it shows the weakness of the socialist position and the strength of the good conservative position. We’re right. You’re wrong. Hahahahahaha.
• Lot moved to Zoar after Sodom and Gamorrah, then he moved up to a cave with his daughters nearby possibly because he feared more divine retribution. So there were men nearby.
• And the similarity between Genesis 19 and Judges 19 makes me think that one of the rural legends of the day involved how the wicked cities were full of gay rape mobs that would bugger you, so you best stop complaining about there being nothing to do here on the farm and get back to feeding the chickens.
• God (as Frank Drebin): “Keep moving… nothing to see here…” (as Sodom and Gomorrah explode).
• But really, the whole tale of Lot is probably one big way for the Israelites to call the Ammonites and Moabites the bastard sons of incest.
kenneth
Jason,
I don’t see that placing that distinction is meaningful. For one, God isn’t off the hook for tsunamis because he wasn’t the efficient cause of the tidal wave. (I’m not even sure it’s accurate to say that the prime mover isn’t responsible for tidal waves). The point is that God is doing something that appears to be morally wrong by not interfering to save lives. It is not any LESS wrong just because He “didn’t create the wave by His own power”. There is still something going on that doesn’t square with our “God given rationality” in both instances. For some reason you are willing to reconcile the tsunami, but not the scriptures. Frankly, I don’t see why, as they both are easily reconciled with the same solution.
It’s not as if God empowering Samson to murder is necessarily evil. I can easily think of possible justifications for allowing such a thing. The thirty men involved could have been murderers. They could have been pedophiles. They could have been enemies of God deserving death. These men and their descendents could have been responsible for thwarting Israel or Gods plans if they had lived. Perhaps their great grandson would have contracted a disease that would have wiped humanity off the face of the earth. God could have had any number of reasons for empowering Samson to act that way WITHOUT sharing Samsons motives. Samson meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. Simple.
The same answer goes for the tsunami. There is nothing necessarily evil about allowing the tsunami to kill millions. There COULD be good reasons for allowing this to happen and we just don’t know what they are. In both cases there is just nothing wrong with saying “I have no idea why did that (or allowed that) but I have faith that He has just reasons.
Potomacist
Muslims are just barely more electable for POTUS than atheists. Socialists are bottom of the barrel though (sorry Sen. Sanders)
http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/6bdstjdogu2cb2zu35rrmw.png
Lane
But doesn’t “generally well-qualified person for president” and “a social” contradict? /s
Potomacist
Two hands working will always accomplish more than two hands praying.
Chris Fisher
There are many days when I am quite convinced that what this country needs is an actual, genuine, capital-S, Socialist revolution.
Whether or not I think that should also include lining the investment bankers up against the nearest wall depends upon how Christian and charitable I am feeling that day.
Dan
how much are those getting tax cuts putting into the till even after getting a little break Probably a pretty good chunk of dough. Seems a tad easy just to point and say no you need to pay more. There’s always going to be someone that thinks they can do more good with your money than you.
Chris Fisher
A lot less than they were 60 years ago. Especially now that inherited wealth isn’t taxed as much as it used to be, and investment income isn’t as taxed as much as it used to be.
The increased wealth allows for them to pour more money into protecting their own interests at the expense of everyone else, to rig the game even more so, so they and their heirs stay rich and everyone else’s chances at moving up in social status is decreased. Until a government supported aristocracy exists.
We’re very close to having that sort of government today.
Chris Fisher
Here’s a fun game as you read your friends’ Facebook posts this week:
Cross out the words “Syrian” and “Muslim” and pen in the words “Jew” and “Jewish”.
If their post sounds like Goebbels, post the modified quote back to them. See if they get the joke.
Hilarity will ensue.
Aaron Fountain
I’m guessing most who don’t get the joke don’t know who Goebbels is.
Dan
Like I said in my OP it’s the they shouldn’t be getting a dip on their bill argument forget how much they’re actually paying. Estate tax at the highest level is at 40%…double dipping on money the government already got a cut. But let’s go easy on the girl putting little to nothing into the pot but reaching in.
Serena
Christian, who asked if “it was ok,” for Catholics to view the bible the way Jason was describing….it sure is http://bustedhalo.com/questionbox/when-did-catholics-understanding-of-bible-stories-change
I had a debate with a creationist friend a few years ago and I was telling her historically the stories in Genesis were read allegorically, I compared to the movie “Big Fish”, where the son is an adult and he hates that his dad told the grandiose stories and never told the truth. I guess the father could have said “I went to Auburn U, saw a cute blonde, started to court her, we feel in love and then got married”. But the fantastical story he told was a better description of his love for his wife.
Greg Hao
It’s not being taxed twice. When the money was earned by the parents, they paid income taxes on it. When it gets “passed on” to the kids, that’s also income to the kids and by all rights they should have to pay taxes on it too.
And let’s not pretend that anybody who has an estate large enough to be taxed at the highest marginal rate doesn’t have a team of lawyers and accountants figuring out ways to minimize the payment.
Greg Hao
Inequality is higher today than during the gilded age. I don’t think economists of any stripe would have predicted this.
Middle Ages and aristocracy here we come!
Greg Hao
The problem I think is that people simple doesn’t know what socialism actually means anymore. As have been said countless times, Christians, at least the message that their savior espouses, should be the ones leading the charge towards socialism.
Greg Hao
Fawk. I’m so behind, I just finished the Jay Bakker ep this morning.
Chris Fisher
Estate taxes used to be 77% with only a 60,000 dollar exemption. Today the top rate is 40% with a 5.3 million dollar exemption.
We had, in this country, historically higher tax rates all around and the middle class thrived. Since the 80’s when we started to redistribute income back to the top of the pile, the middle class has shrunk and struggled and the new aristocracy has formed.
Mike
Has anyone ever read the “godless in dixie” blog? He’s a former pastor turned atheist living in the deep south. I stumbled upon his blog about a year ago. He’s currently doing a series on Tim Keller’s book “The Reason for God”. One the recent posts covers Keller’s explanation of evil in the world. It’s an interesting read. Check it out if want:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2015/11/13/tim-keller-and-the-problem-of-suffering-and-evil/
Also, I think it’s time for an interview with an atheist and who better to interview than an ex-pastor like you all. Drop him (Neil Carter) a line won’t you?