In this episode, the DXPs sit down with infamous sex advice columnist and gay-rights activist Dan Savage. Highlights include Christian telling a vagina-centric story that shocks Dan and renders him speechless (no easy feat in his line of work), and Dan connecting with Jason over their mutual love of musical theater (to the point where Dan refers to him as “Girl!”). Dan discusses his sexuality, the Catholicism with which he was raised, and the origins of his “It Gets Better” project. And in a shocking display of vulnerability no doubt occasioned by his drinking almost an entire bottle of sparkling rosé, Dan tips his hand and discloses the various insidious elements of the Gay Agenda™. The discussion finally turns to divorce, cheating, and why gays want to be married so badly when straight people are finding less and less use for it, and in this case professionals as Seth C. Weston could really help with this.
Also, that thing of when an openly non-monogamous married gay man welcomes you home to Mother Church? Priceless.
Links from this Episode
- It Gets Better
- The Stranger
- Savage Lovecast
- American Savage: Insights, Slights, and Fights on Faith, Sex, Love, and Politics
- The Commitment: Love, Sex, Marriage, and My Family
- The Kid: What Happened After My Boyfriend and I Decided to Go Get Pregnant
- Skipping Towards Gomorrah
- Savage Love: Straight Answers from America’s Most Popular Sex Columnist
Podcast #103: The Holocaust, and Other Minor Missteps
Podcast #500: The One Where We Talk Politics
Podcast #323: Our Election Erection
Podcast #109: Postmodern Polygamy
Fantastic guest guys!
Was this an attempt to weed out? If so, you were successful with this hombre. I am open to some good entertainment and not wound up so tight that I find you funny most of the time but this episode can be summed up as TMI. I found the arguments to be weak and your guest to be gross. I guess I am a prude because his choice of words really put me off. I’ve never found it entertaining or becoming to talk about ones personal sex life – straight or gay. I can only assume it’s the British ancestry in me. I’m sure he’s a nice guy but his reasoning to dismiss god as b.s. was just that. I’m sorry the written word and creation itself doesn’t convince but at least try to come up with something intelligent other than it makes no sense to you.
No attempt to weed out. Just a desire to have different guests with different perspectives. We’ve had a Christian Mystic, an emergent pastor, and a gay sex columnist. In a couple of weeks we’re having another guest with another perspective. We don’t censor our guests (or ourselves). Our goal is not to appeal to or repel any one group of people. It’s simply to talk to each other and guests where they’re at, about both the mundane and the profound.
Far be it from me to say what content direction you should go – I just wanted to throw in my opinion for what it’s worth. As with most things in life, some will love it and some not. That’s all.
Interesting ‘cast, Gentlemen.
• One of my first breaks from political conservatism was gay marriage. I could not think of a good secular reason why it should be prohibited under our laws and I practically begged other conservatives to give me a good argument that didn’t involve Leviticus or “Those people are icky…” and all I got in response was crickets.
I really wanted a rational reason to validate my religious view of gay people, but there wasn’t one. It was purely fundamentalist religiously motivated.
One implosion of conservative economic theory (in the form of the Great Recession) later and I’m a full blown liberal with socialist curious tendencies.
• It is funny how much time and energy and anger are spent on the topics of sex and homosexuality in particular, in our society.
Is it tribalism? Is it a threat that one might be wrong? Is it jealousy because so many people are trying to live austere sex lives that they resent anyone who refuses to abide by them? Are they ‘tempted’?
There are many things called sins in the bible, but only sex seems to have the focus. Perhaps Christianity is more focused on homosexuality, in particular, because it is the one sin that many do not feel tempted toward, whereas focusing on the social ill of greed and consumption (gluttony) might actually affect us and our lifestyles?
To your last point, it’s very different in Europe, where they are much more censorious about explicitly violent content as opposed to sexual content in what they deem culturally fitting to consume.
Yeah, I noticed that too.
And I can imagine the shitstorm that would happen if the FCC tried to rein in violent content in television here. No doubt it would be a sign of the oncoming Socialist takeover and a dastardly plot by liberal pansies to steal all of the gunz and make America weak!
But I was thinking more of the church or Christendom in general. We seem to focus a LOT more on ‘sins’ that we’re not affected by. I mean, if I had to list my own largest sins, number one would be apathy and indifference towards others. Consumption or gluttony would probably be number 2 on the list, with lust finishing a distant third.
If I had to guess at society’s largest sins, I think I would start the list with greed, violence, consumption, apathy/indifference with lust coming in fifth.
I really want to hear you guys interview Mark Shea! I love him so much.
I found the interview very interesting, though obscene at times. If I was hesitant about sharing some of your podcasts before, well this one…
I actually liked some of his points with regard to marriage, he was ~conservative in some ways. And I also agree that it IS hetrosexual’s fault for redefining marriage that made blocking gays from marrying merely arbitrary. I’ve tried to argue this point a couple times with regard to the embrace of contraception.
His dad was a permanent deacon, AND he went to seminary, AND 4 (did I hear that right?) of his brothers became priests?? Now I want to read more about his family and background…
I don’t know. What about that bible verse that says the love of gay is root of all evil?
Not every episode is going to be gold. That’s why there’s a fast forward button.
You guys implied that marriage is supposed to be easy. I don’t think Christianity really teaches that. Doing the right thing is hard a lot of the time, because it goes against our fallen/wounded human nature caused by the fall. Savage constantly referred to humans as “monkeys wearing shoes” (or something similar), and to the extent that that means we are battling fallen natures with base urges, I agree. The entire point of the Christian life is to become Saints by participating with the Grace of God, participating with the divine nature. This is a supernatural, not merely natural. Yes we have animal/base urges, but we are meant to overcome them.
Savage, and progressives in general, advocate for obeying our animal natures and embracing our fallenness – especially when it comes to sexuality. That is easy. But it sounds like Savage is recognizing that the full on embrace of our fallen nature leads to problems even in this life, and is backing away from it – which is good. These problems are a mercy built into the system; they wake us up to what we are doing – hopefully causing us to turn from them to God.
So again, marriage and having kids are HARD. No one says that it is not. Catholics teach that marriage is a sacrament, that it confers God’s Grace to us. Marriage gives you constant opportunities to participate with God’s Grace, to choose someone else’s good before your own, whether your spouse’s or your child’s. These are opportunities to cultivate habits of virtue, to grow into Saints. Again not easy. If you want easy, try the wide gate which is broad and leads to destruction.
I also wanted to say that I heartily agreed with Savage that there should be more mercy within marriage. An instance of adultery should NOT necessarily lead to divorce, and definitely not porn. I think this is where many evangelicals are confused. Married Christians, especially Christians, should be much more open to mercy and forgiveness in light of the recognition of their own personal sinfulness.
This was great. But a question for Jason. Did you find Savage’s lack of epistemological humility about the nonexistence of the Christian god more or less off putting than than the mirror image lack of epistemological humility demonstrated by many fundamentalist Christians about the existence of the Christian god. It sounded like less. Why?
Where did we imply that marriage is supposed to be easy?
Sorry, I meant to say that you guys implied that Christianity teaches that life is easy if you do the “right things”, such as being virgin until married and being monogamous until death. My comment was responding to ~1:20:00 where Savage is telling people who value monogamy to acknowledge that it is a struggle. My comment was to say that Christianity already teaches that, or at least it should. Although, there is definitely a strain of Christianity that doesn’t – they are wrong, and should feel bad.
In my experience as a conservative protestant, Lane, one’s value as a human being and one’s worth as a Christian was far too tied up into slavish adherence to the law. So I don’t think we’re advocating embracing our fallen nature, I think we are in a discussion on whether our better nature is served by following rigid precepts in a book or the higher principles behind them.
Speaking as a parent, when my children are ready for the sex talk, I am more concerned that they understand that they should never view people as objects or use them, but love and respect them and consider their feelings above their own, and to seek friends and partners that treat them with reciprocity, to wait until they feel ready, and to protect themselves as best they can from disease or other dangers, than I am concerned with whether or not they remain virgins until their wedding day or whether or not one of them is gay.
I never want my kids to feel worthless or degraded simply because they had sex with someone they loved who loved them, but I do want them to have the confidence, assertiveness, and self-respect to say “no” until they find someone who values them as a person.
Perhaps that makes me a poor Christian or a liberal squish on the topic of sexuality, but I think I’m okay with that.
While on the one hand he said he was open to the idea of there being a god, he also insisted that no one can know what he/she/it thinks about any given subject. For my part, that seems a bit self-contradictory, as though the ONE thing we can know for sure about God is that we can’t know anything about him.
So yeah, I recognize that kind of thing when I see it. I don’t let it get my panties in a twist or anything though. Especially not toward a guest on my show.
Well I think he also said that knowing what we know about the world at this particular moment makes it highly unlikely that God exists. If he was shown good evidence for God’s existence he might be persuaded. I think that’s the distinction. I think it’s easy for christians to conflate “belief” with “faith”. Saying you believe something doesn’t necessarily mean you are taking it on faith.
I came out of a Calvinist tradition that over emphasized Grace to the point of almost being antinomian. I think that it was intentional, because a lot of our members were former Baptists from legalistic/fundamentalist traditions. They needed the balance of the opposite message. I, on the other hand, didn’t hear enough about holiness or sanctification.
I love how you guys are dressed for the occasion. Jason looks like Sherlock Holmes, Savage is in something Adam Levine would wear, and Christian looks like suburban Dad just home from the PTA! Haha welcome to fashion police. The gay agenda advances!
It was probably your best interview yet by a mile….
But I still think yall are drinking from a fire hose of liberal bullshit 🙂
Fawk. Me and Kenneth actually agree on something? Methinks the rapture is right around the corner!
😉
This goes back to my comment way back at the beginning of the podcast, that it seems to me, as an outsider, that present day Christianity seem to predicate more on fear and oppression than love and tolerance. That as more Christians read the Bible, they seem to stray further and further away from the message that they’re suppose to learn.
I think Savage actually has a similar view as you do, note that he didn’t say monogamy was impossible but that to choose it IS to go against nature and that you can’t have your cake and eat it too (so to speak).
This reminds me of what is so striking about American culture. We aren’t afraid to show our kids death, gore, and violence yet we recoil at the idea that they might see a woman’s nipple or hear a bad word of two.
I was curious because as a listener, I was less put off by Dan’s insistence that it’s all bullshit than I usually am by, for example, an adherent to the Calvary Chapel tradition’s insistence that their view of God is the one true view. I wonder if having shared the Calvary Chapel experience and rejected it as untrue, my own experience makes me more dismissive of those who still espouse it. Conversely, when someone like Dan says it’s all bullshit, I am less dismissive because although I (probably) do not agree with him, it is not an experience that I have shared and rejected. Perhaps the post-modern idea of viewing the world through the lens of our own experience provokes different responses to different people we disagree with, even if the same fundamental criticism is the source of our disagreement.
Also, after listening to this, you two should gay marry and live in a sexless but open marriage where you only sleep with other people, namely women.
Great episode, definitely my favorite one yet. I was a little wary of your interview episodes as the first 3 were not nearly as entertaining as the traditional setup.
I second this motion.
Isn’t this basically the premise of that one adam sandler movie?
PRAYER SHAMING!!!!
I doubt that evidence would persuade a guy like Savage. Evidence was never his issue anyways. According to the testimony on the show he left the faith because he cherished his sin more than God and stopped trusting Gods goodness. Apostasy 101.
Evidence rarely has anything to do with it.
I think that’s one of the biggest cop-out arguments I hear continually. I remember him saying that and I almost piped in and aimed this accusation at him mockingly to stop someone from saying something like this.
I think if Dan could clarify, he would say that the evidence for the god he was being asked to believe in wasn’t strong enough to combat the evidence against him. (i.e. God doesn’t make gay people vs I am gay and I was born that way)
To assume that evidence rarely has anything to do with people leaving Christianity and that it’s all about loving sin is not only uncharitable but also naive in my opinion.
Hah!
Mr. Grumpy Pants,
I completely disagree. In my experience most people don’t have any clue what arguments are put forward for and against God. I would be willing to bet Mr. Savage couldn’t accurately summarize any three arguments for the existence of God in detail.
Not because I think he is lazy or stupid, but because that’s my experience with nearly everyone I know. People become Christians 9.99 times out of ten because they were born into a Christian home or had a religious experience. People leave religion 9.99 times out of ten because their (sinful) desires are supressed/shamed or they stop trusting Gods goodness (family dies tragically, problems with hell, problems with some other biblical teaching).
I’m not saying it’s completely absurd that someone has a problem with the evidence. A reasonable person could survey the evidence and conclude God doesn’t exist. I just don’t think it happens very often.
There are no arguments for God, just baseless theological assertions based on circular reasoning and presuppositions. It’s up to Christians to prove god exists and that their god is the right one.
Thank you for proving my point 🙂
Dammit! I took the bait.
Christians need evidence to help convince other people that their religion is true. But someone who is already Christian can have a warranted belief in God even while not knowing of any external evidence at all to support their beliefs.
Meh. I think I could sin more in the church than I could outside of it.
I mean, I can still be proud, arrogant, selfish, judgmental, greedy, gluttonous and no one will even bat an eye in the church.
Hell, I could even break the commandments American Christians actually care about and go commit adultery or murder and still find a comfortable home in the church once I did my tearful confession, public apology, and social penance. Then I’d even have an awesome testimony I could share about how Jesus met me and saved me and I might even get a book deal out of it.
Outside the church I could really do the same, but I couldn’t tack on the sins of hypocrisy and blasphemy as the cherry on top of my sin sundae.
Maybe. People can sin anywhere in the world. There is was nothing stopping Mr. Savage from receiving communion every Sunday. Nobody would know or stop him. But it would make him a liar and a hypocrite because he wouldn’t WANT to stop sinning. He wants his sin more than He wants God.
The Church may be filled with sinners, but that’s how it should be. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints. Savage claiming he didn’t want to go to a church that wouldn’t have him is like a cancer patient avoiding the doctor for not permitting the tumor.