Podcast #23: Test Drive Hit and Run, Tough Love, and Capitalism vs Christianity

17 December 28, 2014 by

finalIn this episode of Drunk Ex-Pastors, Jason wants to know if they’re recording, but he finally has a reason to worry. Jason then regales us with stories from the car dealership, including a recent test drive that went bad, especially for a pedestrian who may or may not be completely fine. Let’s pretend he is. Christian and Jason then talk about “tough love” and whether or not Christians should shun people who don’t live according to their morals. They then discuss the “Christian Right,” how it came to be, and more importantly, whether it should be. A caller claims to have more joy and freedom as a former Christian than she did as a Christian, which we all know is completely impossible. Finally, Jason is biebered by how much more difficult it is to have a conference call today than it was twenty years ago.

Also, Jason and Christian run out of free shot glasses. Sorry.

17 Comments (click here to leave a comment)

  1. It’s probably not fair to Erik, as I’ve not listened to ep. 23 yet (paused on 22 bc I need to write a more substantive comment for that one), but I just want to quickly jump in say point out that Erik, your comment actually elucidate a great deal of what’s wrong with capitalism: That so much of it is tied to factors out of your control, such as in Jason and Christian’s instance of having “squandered” their 20s pursing other goals rather than making money.

    And that’s something else that really made me think when I posted a comment on unschooling and Christian mentioned that not everyone is driven by the pursuit of capital accumulation and capitalism isn’t really compatible with that point of view.

  2. Erik, Capitalism has actually worked out quite well for me. I make a good living and worked at home for 12 years owning my own company. If you listen to the podcast, we’re not anti-Capitalism. We’re anti-Unbridled-Capitalism. For myself, unbridled Capitalism means things like no regulation, privatized prisons and military, and profit being more important than anything or anyone. I would like to see a mix. I think Capitalism and Socialism can work together. However, the question we were answering was how modern day Christianity came to be associated so closely with Capitalism.

  3. Looking forward to listening to this one, and maybe having the computer open at the same time and commenting as it goes; although that leads to my LONG comments that you love.

  5. Although I don’t recall anything I said, I stand by all of it.

    Kidding aside, it seems to be that the key principles which make capitalism work for some are hard to square with any religion, especially Christianity. Sure, it’s not all bad, of course. But placing profit over people is pretty questionable to me.

  6. On a lighter note, I haven’t checked my voicemail in months. Currently at 38. I feel like changing the outgoing message to say, “either call back at a different time or text me but I don’t pick up voicemail.” Happy New Year!

  9. Profit over people = dump waste in people’s drinking water because it increases profits, substitute chemicals for real ingredients because it makes food last a little longer, exploit the worker to get more profit, etc.

  10. Christian,

    What do you think about the RC teaching on social economics?

    Socialization also presents dangers. Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative. The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which “a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co- ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”7
    1884 God has not willed to reserve to himself all exercise of power. He entrusts to every creature the functions it is capable of performing, according to the capacities of its own nature. This mode of governance ought to be followed in social life. The way God acts in governing the world, which bears witness to such great regard for human freedom, should inspire the wisdom of those who govern human communities. They should behave as ministers of divine providence.
    1885 The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism. It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing the relationships between individuals and societies. It tends toward the establishment of true international order.

  13. My point- unbridled Capitalism is no better than Totalitarian tyrants, i.e., what is worse everyone doing what is right in his own eyes or a magisterial king with too much power and wealth doing the same? We drift from one side to the other in a fallen world. We are entering an age of digital Maoism. Make policy to curb and distribute power and wealth more evenly among the Capital owners.

  14. Oops, cast my bait into the wrong water (FB). I have been listening to your casts, and have appreciated whatever you’ve discussed. I disagree with Erik and am glad you shared your opinions on economics despite the grave handicap of not having PhD’s. Plus, you had the courage to share knowing that ranting may ensue. Erik, I offer this to illustrate that our DXP’s are quite moderate in relation to this listener……
    On economics/politics: the first church mentioned in Acts could be described (in early 20th century terms) an anarcho-socialist commune. Regarding capitalism: it makes more sense to me defining it as a system where people with the power of wealth can own the labor of others. Something that biebers me is when people talk about free-markets like it is synonymous with capitalism. Considering the power base of Republicans to Democrats in America: by behavior (not platforms) they are practically the same. By comparison: they are equally capitalistic. Contrasting them: they differ chiefly in how the intend to manage the poor. One wants to give the poor nothing, incarcerate them on the slightest offense, and build more prisons to trickle wealth up from the multitudes to the few through taxes. The other wants to provide the poor a bare minimum in hopes they might contemplate before committing a crime, “Is my life be better living in indignity, or in prison?” My suspicion with the latter is that it’s probably cheaper to provide minimal welfare than send people to prison. Either way, it doesn’t bode well that Christians rally to take bread and shelter away from so many simply because the government forces the public to through taxes, and then offer little in return locally. The argument for $ lost to “corruption” doesn’t stick. They should rally against corruption.

  15. Rather than working, here I am listening and commenting on your podcast since like your friend, I find myself yelling at my iPhone due to the lack of interaction…

    1. Christians ought to have problems not only with being Republicans but also Libertarians (or at least defined in the Austrian school vein): http://elizabethstokerbruenig.com/2015/01/04/logic-problems-in-christian-libertarianism/

    2. Rand Paul is pretty much a box standard Republican (there’s a reason why he’s labeled as a Republican) other than he’s down with the kids smoking the weed as he’s started to backpedal on his Isolationism (part of the reason why his father could never win) and once you dig under all the praise heaped upon Paul, you’ll find that his positions are standard GOP positions.

  16. just listened to podcast 23. i wanted to suggest that when Adam Smith wrote, Wealth of the Nations, he wrote it not just as an Economist, and Political Philosopher, but as a Moral Philosopher as well. in our age of ultra-concentrated focus, economics has too often departed ways from crossing issues of moral philosophy. now, we have Economists, and Ethicists, but those fields are rarely considered linked, or close together. i think we need to consider, that although Capitalism has definite problems, it was never meant to be an economic system that stood independent from ethics. for example, as a business practiced Capitalism, they were intended to understand that it was morally right to give back (above and beyond their agreed paycheck) to those that helped one achieve their success in the market. this was not to be considered a bonus, but giving back to the employees what was their just due. i know businesses that still do this (such as McMaster-Carr Industrial Supply Co). they not only work, but everyone at those companies prospers with the corporation. McMaster-Carr gives a heavy percentage of their profits every year back to their employees. and they are careful to tell them that it is not a thank you, but what each employee earned to help the corporation succeed.

    it seems that in our modern times, a big problem is that we’ve separated economics from ethics. as American Christians, we know the party-line, and we’re trying to tow it, unaware that the implications of such are very un-Christian-like.

  17. Hector brings up many great and valid points, I think part of the problem is that people and society at large has boiled capitalism down to its very essence and regard economic gains as a zero sum game — that there is no such thing as wealth creation. That for every dollar I earn it’s not created but rather taken from someone else.

    I think that economists are partly to blame here as they have been working on making their field more logic-based like a real science (chemistry, physics, etc) than reason-based (philosophy).

    Finally, a great part of the problem simply has to do with the fact that human beings are built to not recognise the role that luck plays in every facet of our lives: http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2015/01/not-seeing-luck.html

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